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View Full Version : Why good dogs go bad-punishment training


k9mania
02-25-2009, 04:21 PM
People who are overly zealous in disciplining their dogs will probably make the animals even more aggressive, not less, according to a new study by veterinarians at the University of Pennsylvania.


The study involved 140 persons who turned to the animal behavior experts at Penn because their dogs needed help. The findings are consistent with other studies showing that discipline may not be the best way to correct an errant pet's attitude, but some of the statistics are a little surprising.
It's not startling to learn that kicking a bad dog will probably make him or her angry and likely to bite, but it turns out that even yelling "no" can have the opposite of the desired effect.
"This study highlights the risk of dominance-based training, which has been made popular by TV, books and punishment-based training advocates," said Meghan Herron, lead author of the study, published in the current issue of Applied Animal Behavior Science. "These techniques are fear-eliciting and may lead to owner-directed aggression."



In other words, if you kick your dog because he tried to bite you, he might end up owning your foot.
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The study involved dogs that were so problematical that their owners were willing to seek professional help. A high percentage of the dogs became even more aggressive when they were kicked (43 percent), or the owner growled at the dog (41 percent), or something was physically removed from the dog's mouth (39 percent), or the dog was rolled onto its back and held down (31 percent.)



see rest of article at:


http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/DyeHard/story?id=6949062&page=1

lucysnewmum
02-25-2009, 05:56 PM
no surprises in that article K9!

positive reinforcement is by far the most effective and kindest method of training. whilst everyone will probably agree that the household pooch needs to know its boundaries i would hope that they would also agree that he/she doesnt need to be bullied into submission. society doesnt tolerate bullies in the workplace or schoolyard so why does it seem to be acceptable on the training field?

the rehabilitation of a dog with severe issues will require forethought, compassion and consistency. even agressive dogs have a reason behind their behaviour (be it medical or social). its up to us as responsible dog owners/trainers/lovers to find the most effective, kindest method to bring them out of their torment and into a world of love.

BetterDog4U
02-25-2009, 06:06 PM
no surprises in that article K9!

the rehabilitation of a dog with severe issues will require forethought, compassion and consistency. even agressive dogs have a reason behind their behaviour (be it medical or social). its up to us as responsible dog owners/trainers/lovers to find the most effective, kindest method to bring them out of their torment and into a world of love.

I agree completely ... The dog's in the study were "over the line" because they were mistreated. It not supprising that they would act agressively to "more of the same".

PudelGrl
02-25-2009, 09:15 PM
Not surprised, though I'm glad there is a study backing this up.

I have met so many dogs whose owners thought a good way to correct behavior was to smack the dog on the nose. Not surprisingly, the majority of these people are now having problems with their dogs biting peoples hands.

I think a lot of people don't know the difference between being a good pack leader and crossing the line of trying to be "dominant".

Labman
02-26-2009, 01:43 AM
Yes, I often tell people that a top dog is more like an old fashioned strict, but loving parent, not a drill sargent.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL

Jr_K9_Expert
02-26-2009, 06:06 PM
I would just like to point out that you have to be clear about defining "Punishment", I enjoyed reading this article by Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. about some distinctions (more related to P- and P+ but related to this thread nonethless):

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/DrP2.htm

Grrr... I can't find where I read it, but in an article I was reading about operant conditioning, it said that while R+ is really effective and most popular, it isn't good to be so concentrated on "their technique" so that they loose sight of the dog as an individual and use methods that simply don't work on that dog no matter how many other dogs it has worked on.