so how do you correct your dog

[gsdmama]

from what i gather is that positive trainers don't use corrections and they think that using corrections sets the dog training world back years.

ok i use treats for the dogs, a lot of praise, and a big treat in the end like their kong or play time.

but what do you do when the dog doesn't listen at all. like for instance, you go thru your routine or say you what to focus on one command like heel. and you have given treat, after treat then all of a sudden the dog doesn't do it. at this point what do you do?? do you tell your dog NO. do you tell your dog NO and a correction?

some people don't like the correction part. they don't believe in that. i feel that it is like them being in the litter with mom around. doesn't mom correct them when they do something wrong and tell them no with a correction??

that is what our trainer has us do. of course A LOT OF PRAISE AND TREATS, but when the dog does something wrong, it is a firm NO and a correction and just one corrections it is not several just one., but when they do it right you better say it LOUD!!! GOOD BOY or you get into trouble for not being animated enough. it is funny i go from somewhat high pitch "GOOD GIRL OR BOY" (whoever I am working with) to a firm "NO".

[Furbilator]

I am a firm believer in praise and correction based training. Treat training is OK to start with but quickly becomes counterproductive to training as the dog is working for the treat instead of for you, it is a distraction.

When I'm working on a complex training technique, like long retrievals through complicated direction changes, I usually break the training down into smaller, easier increments; building up from there until they have mastered the entire run. My dogs always knew when they did it wrong because they would get a long strong whistle blast or if close enough to hear me, a loud, sharp and deep throated 'No', but just one not like a machine gun repeating No No No. They would have to repeat the task until they got it right to receive praise. When they did do it right, their reward was an excited rapid succession of whistles and a hardy chest rub and 'Good Girl' in a what I call a happy voice. Again, the praise isn't long either as it distracts the dog so that they no longer remember why they are receiving the praise...they simply forget. If you keep both praise and correction as quick and firm, your dog will understand when she has done a good job and when she has failed.

Sometimes corrections must be on the more physical side; a tug on the collar, a tug on the ear to get them to look at you, physically putting their body in the direction you want them to go or on very rare occassions a swat on the butt when they are not paying attention at all or exhibiting dangerous behaviour. For example, when training my dogs to not break (leave the heel and sit position) if they repeatedly break and don't get it I will smack them on the butt to remind them that they must pay attention. If a dog broke heel/sit while hunting, the dog could be accidentally shot so it is a no debate type of correction. Correction is often given a bad rap because people resort to harsh corrections as a first resort and too often. But again, it must be quick, to the point and isn't drawn out no matter how frustrated you may be. A tug on the neck or a tap on the nose isn't going to harm Fiffy's feelings if it is done right and countered with lots of affection, love and a good dose of respect.

Furbs

[Labman]

I use corrections when I am trying to extinguish a behavior, just not harsh ones, and I also reward behavior I want. It depends, a leash pop, a stern No or Bad dog, withdrawing my attention, etc.

Rewards don't have to be treats. I was originally taught not to use treats. I am never caught short without a ''Good dog!'' or an ear scratch. Just as harsh corrections can be over done, so can treats.

[Jr_K9_Expert]

Ok lemme touch on two aspects of this problem....

One, the reason why treat based training will eventually hit a dead end is because the reason your dog is doing the action is solely for the treat, if you take the treat away suddenly and continuely fail to give them a treat they will no longer do that action for you. You must condition! This meaning that you must make the treat unexpected, not every time he/she obeys. Here is an aritcle I wrote about Conditioning, hope it helps explain what I am saying:

"After training, what's next? Once the dog's response is predictable, meaning that you know that the pooch will respond a certain way to a specific command, it is time to ensure that these behaviors become second nature. Training with treats (food, toys, etc.) just does the job of letting the dog know that it is doing something that we approve of. However if we train with treats and leave training at that, we wen up with a dog that thinks that every time it does something good it will/should recieve a treat, which may have some set backs. The goal of conditioning is to eliminate the goodies while keeping the same responce to a command with verbal praise sufficing as a reward.

Lets put a likely example of what is possible should conditioning not be done. Someone is training their dog to come, the dog seems to have it down because whenever the owners says "Come" the dog comes and the owner gives it a treat. Now the dog comes because it expects a treat every time it comes. Now lets say the dog gets out and dashes away to the park as soon as the owner opens the car door. The owner yells "Come" and the pooch comes without delay, however the owner doesn't have treats on him, so all he can offer is verbal praise. The owner uses the "Come" command a few more times and every time the dog listens but hesitates more about coming. Finally its time to go and the owner calls the dog with the recall command, but the dog no longer comes when called. What went wrong? The problem was that the dog expected a treat for coming to the owner, however the owner didn't have any treats, therefore the dog no longer has a reason to come back. Conditioning should eliminate, or at the very least mitigate, this problem. Your dog shouldn't expect a treat for obeying, besides its not practical to have dog food or toys with you all the time. Although it is very helpful to keep them handy every now and then.

Conditioning are just training methods the owners takes to make treat rewards unexpected and teaches the dog to suffice with verbal praise.

Once the dog makes the connection between a command, the action, and the reward it is time to ween the dog off the treats. All that is done is repeat a command, wait for the appropriate responce and reward. Repeat the command you are teaching a couple times each time rewarding verbally and with a treat. Now alternate using treat + verbal praise with only using verbal praise (without food/toy).

Use the following pattern for the next set of commands:

F = reward with food treat and verbal praise
V = reward using only verbal praise

First set of commands: F, F, F, F, F, F, F, F

Second set of commands: F,V, F,V, F,V, F,V, F,V

Third set of commands: F, V, V, F, V, V, F, V, V, F

Fourth set of commands: (random) F, V, V, F, F, V, F, V, V, V, F

You don't have to follow this pattern exactly, but it should give a general idea of how to properly condition. The last commands should be unpredictable because we don't want a pooch that will only listen every other time, or in a specific pattern. If for some reason the dog does something else when you only verbally praise, for example he won't stay seated if you don't have a treat, then you have to start all the way from square one and make sure that he knows whats expected of him/her.

Make sure that you are verbally praising with every succesful command, it doesn't matter if you are giving a treat or not. Be consistent with the conditioning and do it in your training sessions. However don't try to fit it all into one or two training sessions, you will just bore your dog. It takes a couple tries and at different times. With time your pooch won't know when a goody is coming thus he/she wont hesitate to obey an order just in case that there is a treat for obeying, and also to seek your aproval, which some dogs value much higher than treats. You can condition for just about any command too."

Next, the reason why corrections (negative reinforcement and positive punishment) are looked down upon is that many missuse it. The average joe will use corrections to take out their anger on the dog, sometimes to the point of abuse. A correction is to teach a dog (with it's attention distracted) that it is doing wrong; essentially these types of corrections not only corrects the unwanted behavior but also redirrects the dog's attention to you. However, you can always use negative punishment, which is very effective for some dogs and there is no need physically correct the dog.

[BetterDog4U]

I'm am also a firm believer in praise and correction based training.

I use ONLY three negative reinforcements in training.

1). I use the word "NO" in a harsh but calm tone.
2). I use the word "HEY" in a sturn but calm tone.
3). I use a finger touch on the rear or shoulder with one of the words above when the dog is fixated on something and won't follow a command.

Treat Training works well for me but I only use treats to start out with and after the desired response has become a reality i begin to phase out the treats right away.

A perfect example is Patchs ... I got her on Monday Evening and I began working on the "come" command to be sure she would come to me every time i call her.

I began with 8 small bits of treat in my pocket, I called her and when she came I gave her a peice. I continued this thru yesterday. I gave her a treat EVERYTIME. Last night, I began to use verbal praise in place of the half of the treats. Today at lunch we worked again. This time, I only gave her two small bits of treat and after that it was ONLY praise. I plan to use a few small bits during our sessions for the next week or so, then I should be able to phase them out completely.

As with all training, I always keep sessions under 10 minutes in length. I always do something that the dog likes to do when the session ends. Playing with the dog's favorite toy or going for a walk keeps the dog interested in training because there is always "fun time" following the training.

[Corinthian]

Ok lemme touch on two aspects of this problem....


People who claim the dog will only work for the food either don't understand the process or if they actually did it, they did it wrong.

[k9mania]

I still train 4 and 6 year olds with treats on new behaviors and refreshers. I guarantee you that they are not doing it for the treat. They are doing it to please me. You should pair any treat with "verbal praise, excitement, a pat." Many of those high level agility dogs are trained constantly on treats. When they go into the ring...they know there are no treats. They are doing it because they like what they are doing because it has been made to be fun. However, don't think that the are not corrected by a "uh uh, or put in place at times." But most of the time they are rewarded in some way "a treat, a toy, a verbal praise" for acceptable behaviors and they learn that this is much more fun and pleasant.

[dobetaztic]

I always start my training with the clicker and reward, as training progressess the reward is given intermitantly and then realy but my dogs always have verbal praise. their rewards cn be treats, toys or pats. if they do something wrong like chew jump up or nip then they are physically egnored no speech, look or touch, I find that this works so much better than using harsh punishment like smaking, or punishment aids like electric collars, pinch collars, rubbing noses in things. I have used noise aversion and water sprays for certain unwanted behaviours like noise or raiding bins but always followed with a reward when presented with the desired behaviour so to reinforce that i want them to behave like that.

[BetterDog4U]

I want to rephrase what I posted eariler.

I said, " ... I should be able to phase them out completely."

What I ment to say was, "I should be able to phase the treats out during these initial training sessions."

The reason I want to clarify this statement is because I believe that training is (and should be) an ongoing thing. I am constantly working with my dogs to reaffirm thier training and I sometimes use treats to aid this training.

[Jr_K9_Expert]

Talking about CT, I've heard that this is the only kind of training in which it would be more harmful than useful to use corrections. At least that is what I got from Karen Pryor's article "Poisoned Cue". Anyone has anymore insight on this???

[BetterDog4U]

Talking about CT, I've heard that this is the only kind of training in which it would be more harmful than useful to use corrections. At least that is what I got from Karen Pryor's article "Poisoned Cue". Anyone has anymore insight on this???

I read an article some time ago the stated: "If you don't know what you are doing, you can do more harm than good" ... It went on to say that unless you "click" at the exact "split second" the dog does the behaivor you can confuse the dog and it will not understand what it did correctly.

CT is pretty fool proof for stuff like sit, stay and come ... but when you get to the more complicated behaivors it becomes critical to have great timing ...

[k9mania]

Steven, have you thought about going to any of the clicker training expos or the Pet Dog trainer Association workshops. It is good to see it demonstrated and listen to the person who is an expert discuss the techniques with other trainers trying to learn. I loved the clicker expo. It was in San Diego that time that I went.

http://clickertraining.com/clickerexpo/http://www.apdt.com/conf/blog/details.aspx?id=1126

[dobetaztic]

I agree about going to a clicker expo, I have attended several of karen pryors, i teach basic clicker training to some of my clients but generally I only use the advanced stuff on my own dogs unless the clients really have mastered how to use the clicker at the precise timing and understand the concept fully. I have seen remarkable improvement in both their dogs and mine even to competition standerd.

[Howler]

i use different methods for Charlie and Bense. Bense is very treat orientated and he tends to ignore a sharp No, however he doesnt like a loud Ah sound and does respond well to that. he doesnt reposnd to a shoulder tap either.

Charlie on the other hand is incredibly stubborn, he isnt interested in treats at all but he absolutely hates being told no. you can say it loud, quiet, high or low, as soon as he hears no and you point a finger at him he goes all apologetic. its quite amusing to see, if it comes to having to tap him on the shoulder he acts as though his world has ended.

i dont think it can be said that dogs only work for the treat, take them away and bense will still do what you want for a cuddle or belly rub in charlies case. it just gives him a bigger incentive to work. its just a matter of not over using it, the same with anything i suppose.

[BetterDog4U]

i dont think it can be said that dogs only work for the treat, take them away and bense will still do what you want for a cuddle or belly rub in charlies case. it just gives him a bigger incentive to work. its just a matter of not over using it, the same with anything i suppose. I agree, it would be better said that, dog's work to please the owner, and it is up to us to find the most effective way to relay our wishes to each dog on a 1 to 1 basis ... Some respond to food, others to tactal reward, other respond to a kind word. Part of dog ownership is learning to speak dog!

[Jr_K9_Expert]

Steven, have you thought about going to any of the clicker training expos or the Pet Dog trainer Association workshops. It is good to see it demonstrated and listen to the person who is an expert discuss the techniques with other trainers trying to learn. I loved the clicker expo. It was in San Diego that time that I went.

http://clickertraining.com/clickerexpo/http://www.apdt.com/conf/blog/details.aspx?id=1126

Sounds like a good idea, and SD isn't too far either:D thanks for the links :cool: