8 month old Welsh Terrier in heat

[lorih]

I have a 8 month old Welsh Terrier that has just gone into her first heat. When I purchased her my sister-in-law begged me not to get her fixed and to breed her 1 time so she could have one of the pups and I agreed to try but this dog is not a common dog especially in our area and I have yet to run across anyone else with a Welshie.I am not trying to breed her now she is too young but I want to know if there is anyone out there that would have a stud that would breed for pick of the litter.She is ACA registered about 14inches tall and weighs 18 pounds I have her pedigree 4 years back her Sire is Hardrock's Black Bourbon and her Dam is Cuddly Canines Mini. I hope to breed her just the one time then have her spayed.

[Jr_K9_Expert]

I would just spay her. I really don't want to cause offense and I hope you take it as constructive critism instead but if you don't know what to do to find a stud then its highly probable that you don't know what the breeding implications are. ACA, not sure about that registery either, and while a pedigree is great, are those lines champs or have titles? Do they and your pooch have health certifications? Are you attached your pooch, I'm more than positive that you are but are you ready for the possibility (however small it may be) to have complications with the breeding/whelping process? Complications that may result fatal? Are you ready to find GOOD homes to these pups and not just put them in the newspaper ads? Are you ready to care for them and pay vet bills for any care they may require? Do you know how the nutritional needs of your dog will change once she is pregnant?

Yes it is a fair request on the part of your sister in law, but their are other Welshies in rescues just begging for a good home, she could look there. Save yourself, your dog, and the dog over population some trouble and get her fixed if you answered NO to any of the questions above.

But regardless of your decision, best of wishes. From what I can see on your avatar, your pooches look great ;)

[Shara]

I would just spay her. I really don't want to cause offense and I hope you take it as constructive critism instead but if you don't know what to do to find a stud then its highly probable that you don't know what the breeding implications are. ACA, not sure about that registery either, and while a pedigree is great, are those lines champs or have titles? Do they and your pooch have health certifications? Are you attached your pooch, I'm more than positive that you are but are you ready for the possibility (however small it may be) to have complications with the breeding/whelping process? Complications that may result fatal? Are you ready to find GOOD homes to these pups and not just put them in the newspaper ads? Are you ready to care for them and pay vet bills for any care they may require? Do you know how the nutritional needs of your dog will change once she is pregnant?

Yes it is a fair request on the part of your sister in law, but their are other Welshies in rescues just begging for a good home, she could look there. Save yourself, your dog, and the dog over population some trouble and get her fixed if you answered NO to any of the questions above.

But regardless of your decision, best of wishes. From what I can see on your avatar, your pooches look great ;)


I do agree, unless you know the lineage of your dog, and have had tests done...you do need to do research on your breed, to find what their faults are, some breeds are prone to hip displacia and need to be "clear" of such genetic disorders before you breed. If you do not and one or the other is positive, you will have sickly dogs in the future.
Breeding your female for the sake of one person wanting 1 puppy has a lot of implications. You would have to find suitable owners for the rest of the litter. And in otherwords, you would be considered by most a "backyard breeder." Sorry no offence. But there are way too many dogs in the want ads already, and I do hope you take the right choice and have the dog fixed. Your sister in law I am sure can find another dog somewhere that needs a home, or even go to a reputable breeder to get one dog, instead of having to bring 4+ puppies in this world...

[LoveMyLabs]

It would benefit you and her to get her spayed. I have never heard of ACA (American Canine Assocation *maybe?*) but I can tell you that it sounds like she doesn't have the lines or health tests done to breed her anyhow. You need CH lines, breed specific health tests, a LOT of money, buyers for the pups before they are born, a male that compliments her (has a good temperament, up to standards, good pedigree, and health tests), she will need to be brucellosis negative before any owner would let their male stand at stud, and you'd need a quality health guarantee and as much knowledge about the breed as possible. Not to mention a whelping pen, emergency kit, e-vet #, money for a possible c-section, and a contract/guarantee written up for all new owners to sign.

If she is not titled, her parents weren't titled, and there are no titled dogs in her immediate pedigree (and you can't find a male that fits those qualities either) AND she hasn't had health certs done -- just get her spayed.
Think about what COULD happen if you bred her. What if she died? What if her puppies died? What if your friend changed their mind and you were stuck with all the pups? What if the pups got sick? What if they had some genetic health issues and owners brought them back? What if you couldn't afford the bills associated with whelping?

These are just a few things to consider.

[Danielle]

Here is some constructive advice and its not intended to offend, so please take it as its meant. :)

Are you a registered breeder? If not, please dont breed this baby. In essence you would be backyard breeding, and it is not at all ethical. You dont want to breed from a bitch that is not worthy of being bred from or only pet quality. Please spay your girl and leave breeding up to the professionals. :)

Finding a Welsh terrier 'dog' to put with her doesnt cut it. Both he and she must be of sound breeding and health before even considering putting them together. What is her history and lineage? Does she come from Ch or Gr Ch dogs? It astounds me how the public think breeding is as easy as putting 'Bitch A' with 'Dog B' and presto there's a litter of pups. It isnt that easy sadly.

You must also ask yourself....."Why do I want to breed this bitch?" Isnt she your pet? Would you put her through a mating, gestation, whelping and weaning considering she is your devoted pet?

If you want to breed, the first thing you need to do is register yourself with a governing body. Then contact a good/ethical breeder and organise to get a bitch to breed from with sound advice and consistent mentoring. Breeding is extremely difficult to do correctly and can very easily turn out bad if you dont know what you are doing.

I wish you luck with your breeding future and really hope that you go about it the right way. :) If you need any advice, please ask here, we are all here to help in any way we can.

Danni.

[Momto3]

She's too young for breeding I would think. Where I tend to go with the spay/neuter thing (all mine are rescues), you might contact the breeders and see if they have an unrelated male for her in the future. Hopefully they do their homework and could make an educated match for her. Maybe your sister could check the rescues and get her own pooch? Save a life instead of bringing more into the world kinda thing. There's just too many homeless critters out there.

[snazyminis]

It would be much cheapper and easier for your SIL to buy a puppy from a breeder - maybe even the one you got your dog from, if she llikes the looks and temperament of your bitch. Or does SIL just want a free pet?

Aside from the fact you will be risking the life and health of your bitch by breeding her there is a lot of money in breeding dogs - ie money that is spent!!

stud fee
health tests/checks before breeding for both parents
vet fees - checks on mum before whelping, puppy checks and vaccs, docking fees and that is just the basics, you could also need out of hours emergency vets, maybe a c-section.
you would need extra supples - whelping box, food, bedding, bowls, heat pad/heat lamp (as pups need to be keppt very warm) you may also need higher heating bills in winter + higher bills for all the extra washing of bedding on a daily occurence.
registration fees.

You can easily write off the cost of a few puppies before you are even likely to break even.

Do you really want to go through that just to give your SIL a puppy?

If you work, you will need time off, especially if a pup needs to be bottle fed day and night. You should also be ppreppared to keepp puppies for longer then the 8 weeks, if good homes aren't forthcoming. It helps to have a mentor in the breed who can help you through the process.


Breeding is a very tiring and expensive 'business' with a lot of hard work, care and knowledge needed about your breed and the whole breeding and raising of pups.

[Shara]

=wonders if she will ever come back and read what people posted and take it to heart or be upset=

[Jr_K9_Expert]

=wonders if she will ever come back and read what people posted and take it to heart or be upset=

I hope that if this person was sincerely asking the question and will take the information without offense, but unfortunately the dog forum communities are plagued by trolls that think its funny to start discussions like these because they know exactly what sets us off...most usually breeding, breed profiling, and celebrity dog trainers....

[LhasaApsoFamily]

"but I want to know if there is anyone out there that would have a stud that would breed for pick of the litter"

Did anyone even answer her question?? If it were me I probably wouldn't be back and I would feel offended.

The General Public are people like me who are on here too trying to get some help. You out there that know so much more than us might bully us out of here. Some of you might really reach out and help us understand more.

I appreciate your interest and your concern and your efforts to educate but some of us are new here.

[Danielle]

"but I want to know if there is anyone out there that would have a stud that would breed for pick of the litter"

Did anyone even answer her question?? If it were me I probably wouldn't be back and I would feel offended.

The General Public are people like me who are on here too trying to get some help. You out there that know so much more than us might bully us out of here. Some of you might really reach out and help us understand more.

I appreciate your interest and your concern and your efforts to educate but some of us are new here.

I did not see one post that could even be considered as bullying.:confused:

People are trying to educate this woman. Most ppl on this site do not agree with BYBing and are entitled to their opinion. If she cant handle what people have to say then she shouldnt be posting a question.:rolleyes:

[Jr_K9_Expert]

"but I want to know if there is anyone out there that would have a stud that would breed for pick of the litter"

Did anyone even answer her question?? If it were me I probably wouldn't be back and I would feel offended.

The General Public are people like me who are on here too trying to get some help. You out there that know so much more than us might bully us out of here. Some of you might really reach out and help us understand more.

I appreciate your interest and your concern and your efforts to educate but some of us are new here.

I agree with Danni. Being new to the dog forum community it would be hard to understand why we act the way we do when it comes to this touchy subject.

Thing is for one, we get way too many trolls that just LOVE to come on forums and say they want to breed simply to make us angry...thats annoying in itself.

Secondly, its that there are SO many dogs dying out there because there are simply not enough homes. Some of the members here such as Danni herself, have witnessed this as they work with shelters. Simply put ignorance is no excuse for putting more dogs on death row:mad:, and it is our obligation to deter those that do so simply because they want to breed...

[NoodlezxMama]

Secondly, its that there are SO many dogs dying out there because there are simply not enough homes. Some of the members here such as Danni herself, have witnessed this as they work with shelters. Simply put ignorance is no excuse for putting more dogs on death row:mad:, and it is our obligation to deter those that do so simply because they want to breed...

People are always going to breed dogs, for as long as we live..there really is no way to deter people from it..What we can do is educate people on proper breeding and how to be reputable, responsible breeders...in hopes that maybe we can raise the expectations of future dog owners on what they look for in a breeder.

Now in no way am I condoning byb's, but alot of byb's aren't as horrible as we make them out to be, alot are just uneducated but have the right heart for it. It's up to those of us who have spent our time educating ourselves, to pass on all of the information, and set higher standards..you know, make people want to be better breeders. I hope people see where I am going with this.

While I am all for rescue, and loved my big boy to the ends of the earth and back, there is no way we can stop breeding..Shelter pets are not for everyone, remember that..

[ann_hawes]

While I am all for rescue, and loved my big boy to the ends of the earth and back, there is no way we can stop breeding..Shelter pets are not for everyone, remember that..

But they weren't BORN at that shelter! Most are only there 5 or 6 days before they're killed! They were born in a home or yard and deliberately bred by someone wanting to make several hundred tax free dollars fairly quickly by breeding two dogs with registrations. :mad: Or born because owners don't get their PETS altered!

[NoodlezxMama]

But they weren't BORN at that shelter! Most are only there 5 or 6 days before they're killed! They were born in a home or yard and deliberately bred by someone wanting to make several hundred tax free dollars fairly quickly by breeding two dogs with registrations. :mad: Or born because owners don't get their PETS altered!


Oh ann, I know hun, and it's ridiculous. What I meant by that was that there are people who honestly believe that they cannot take on a shelter pet, and would rather go to a breeder for a particular breed of puppy. Many feel it is easier to make a puppy into a good family dog. Those families are usually ones with small children, ones that I do not blame at all for being careful.

While it still remains that you cannot stop breeding, I think maybe classes should be offered to teach those who are thinking about doing it, all about the process..and help with the 'setting higher standards' for breeders. Classes that will A) Scare away those that are uneducated from wanting to breed after they see all of the underlying problems that can occur, the financial side, people who thought it was just about mating and having puppies...or B) Make people want to become better breeders...

What do you think? Are there any other things we could do to ensure better breeding, and educate?

[ann_hawes]

I believe that some people would benefit from education about the potential problems of breeding pet quality dogs, but there are many who already know that they should be screening for health problems and carefully evaluating the structure and temperament before breeding, yet won't spend the time and money it takes to do these things.

[elsasmom]

I believe that some people would benefit from education about the potential problems of breeding pet quality dogs, but there are many who already know that they should be screening for health problems and carefully evaluating the structure and temperament before breeding, yet won't spend the time and money it takes to do these things.

I'd have to agree. I just don't see the need for the non-professional to breed pet quality dogs when there are still enough accidental (oops) breeding and strays breeding to provide a dog for all who want one. If we ever find ourselves in a world where there is a shortage of dogs and a waiting list to own one, then we can have the discussion of who should be breeding and why; but for now, breeding puppies for the fun it and the experience seems rather indulgent to me. Too many still die without a home.

[LoveMyLabs]

Just spay her please!

ACA is not a good registry. Just because you have 4 generations doesn't mean she should be bred or that those were quality dogs in the first place (any CH's behind her?). Her parents aren't titled and she's not titled therefore she doesn't need to be bred. Unless you get the proper health certs done, offer a good health guarantee, have mulitple Ch's behind her, and she is titled or pointed towards a title you should NOT breed her.

It's not about having puppies or getting money. It's about keeping the breed to a certain standard and knowing what you are doing.

[Danielle]

Just spay her please!

ACA is not a good registry. Just because you have 4 generations doesn't mean she should be bred or that those were quality dogs in the first place (any CH's behind her?). Her parents aren't titled and she's not titled therefore she doesn't need to be bred. Unless you get the proper health certs done, offer a good health guarantee, have mulitple Ch's behind her, and she is titled or pointed towards a title you should NOT breed her.

It's not about having puppies or getting money. It's about keeping the breed to a certain standard and knowing what you are doing.


Right on.;)

Why on earth you would want to breed this baby is beyond me. She is your pet. You have absolutely no experience in breeding. You stated that you dont mind if your kids witness a 'loss'. How sad is that. Your poor kids. :mad:

Please spay this bitch, and if you ARE serious about breeding (which I doubt you are) then go get yourself a mentor, do some study, get a quality bitch, get registered and go from there.

If you are serious about breeding, then go about it the right way and you will have full support of everyone on here. There are a lot of ppl on here that have many years of experience and would be willing to help you out in any way they can.

You will only find one or two members of K9mania that will condone bybing, so dont be surprised at the response you are getting.:rolleyes:

[Howler]

Umm ok really dumb question but what is the ACA? i have never heard of it, as byb'ers it will never stop, i have friends who have bred their dogs even though i told them good reasons not to. even charlies breeder still churns out mongrels, they are all healthy and amazingly well cared for and homed to people he knows but are mutts just the same.

although lately i have noticed there are less dogs in the classifieds and those that are claim to be Kc reg with vaccinations and health checks which makes a huge change in an area like mine.

[NoodlezxMama]

Umm ok really dumb question but what is the ACA? i have never heard of it, as byb'ers it will never stop, i have friends who have bred their dogs even though i told them good reasons not to. even charlies breeder still churns out mongrels, they are all healthy and amazingly well cared for and homed to people he knows but are mutts just the same.

although lately i have noticed there are less dogs in the classifieds and those that are claim to be Kc reg with vaccinations and health checks which makes a huge change in an area like mine.

Pretty much, AKC is alot harder to get puppies registered into, as you must have both sire and dams paperwork and bloodlines to prove that the puppy is a purebred.

Because it was so much harder to get registered, and alot of breeder's puppies were being turned down from AKC, different organizations, like the American Canine Association, opened up. ACA will register anything, if to the best of their knowledge the puppy is pure..that could mean a tiny beagle pup that grows into a 100 lb monster.. =]

ACA registrations are most used by BYB's and puppy mills. Thus why it is of less quality then AKC..

However, neither are direct reflections of temperment or health, just one promises what your dog really is, and the other only sort of promises.

[Jr_K9_Expert]

Leesa I actually see what you are saying, and yes you are right in that shelter dogs aren't for everyone... And yes some people would most likely do anything they can to become reputable breeders if they were educated, thing is many could care less...those people I see regularly at the Swap-Meet selling litters after litters, I bet a million dog savvies could lecture them and they still wouldn't care, simply said its what money does to someone that is greedy. Another groups of unexcusables are those that simply don't want to alter their pets and give dumb excuses such as "they would loose their manhood" or something like that.

I know many people that don't alter their pets even though they never plan on breeding, but those are people that have done their homework and have a legitimate reason why not to want to go through with an operation, people that know what to do to keep accidents from happening.

When all is said and done, can we fix this problem of the dog over population right now? Absolutely not. This isn't however, a reason to make it worse and isn't to say that it can't be amerliorated for future generations. Ignorance is simply not an excuse, no matter what the intentions.

I was wrong when I said "deter" in my previous post, and as corrected, it should be educate, that is our obligation and some members of the forum communities take it very seriously.

[NoodlezxMama]

Leesa I actually see what you are saying, and yes you are right in that shelter dogs aren't for everyone... And yes some people would most likely do anything they can to become reputable breeders if they were educated, thing is many could care less...those people I see regularly at the Swap-Meet selling litters after litters, I bet a million dog savvies could lecture them and they still wouldn't care, simply said its what money does to someone that is greedy. Another groups of unexcusables are those that simply don't want to alter their pets and give dumb excuses such as "they would loose their manhood" or something like that.

I know many people that don't alter their pets even though they never plan on breeding, but those are people that have done their homework and have a legitimate reason why not to want to go through with an operation, people that know what to do to keep accidents from happening.

When all is said and done, can we fix this problem of the dog over population right now? Absolutely not. This isn't however, a reason to make it worse and isn't to say that it can't be amerliorated for future generations. Ignorance is simply not an excuse, no matter what the intentions.

I was wrong when I said "deter" in my previous post, and as corrected, it should be educate, that is our obligation and some members of the forum communities take it very seriously.

I see what you are saying too, Steven.. but what I meant by all of my jibberish, lol, was that if we can get more reputable breeders, then byb's..then maybe the standards will be raised, and people will be more willing to turn down the money-hungry losers. I'm not that great at wording what I mean, but I hope that I make sense.. I am not saying the OP should go out and breed her dog, simply because she likes the idea, but I am saying that we shouldn't tell her absolutely not, IF she's willing to work hard and study/do all the things that make a breeder reputable. I do think we are quick to discourage people who have their hearts in the right place, but don't know how to go about it..

[Jr_K9_Expert]

I see what you are saying too, Steven.. but what I meant by all of my jibberish, lol, was that if we can get more reputable breeders, then byb's..then maybe the standards will be raised, and people will be more willing to turn down the money-hungry losers. I'm not that great at wording what I mean, but I hope that I make sense..

No problem, you worded your thoughts eloquently and we understand and it's definitely a point to take into consideration.


I am not saying the OP should go out and breed her dog, simply because she likes the idea, but I am saying that we shouldn't tell her absolutely not, IF she's willing to work hard and study/do all the things that make a breeder reputable. I do think we are quick to discourage people who have their hearts in the right place, but don't know how to go about it..

Actually the first couple post didn't necessarily discourage anyone from breeding, simply pointed out that breeding isn't all candy and roses. I don't believe (and please take no offence LML) that one should say "Forget about it! Just neuter/spay her/him", but it is important to point out the tests, the risks, the financial costs...some people take offense to that, not quite sure why. I'm guess its because they expect everyone to cheer them on and wish them luck, but that never happens.lol.

[NoodlezxMama]

No problem, you worded your thoughts eloquently and we understand and it's definitely a point to take into consideration.



Actually the first couple post didn't necessarily discourage anyone from breeding, simply pointed out that breeding isn't all candy and roses. I don't believe (and please take no offence LML) that one should say "Forget about it! Just neuter/spay her/him", but it is important to point out the tests, the risks, the financial costs...some people take offense to that, not quite sure why. I'm guess its because they expect everyone to cheer them on and wish them luck, but that never happens.lol.


Thank-you, Steven. =] And yes, when I said so quick to discourage, I meant people who immediately say no..spay/neuter your dog right away.

[ann_hawes]

Pretty much, AKC is alot harder to get puppies registered into, as you must have both sire and dams paperwork and bloodlines to prove that the puppy is a purebred.

Because it was so much harder to get registered, and alot of breeder's puppies were being turned down from AKC, different organizations, like the American Canine Association, opened up. ACA will register anything, if to the best of their knowledge the puppy is pure..that could mean a tiny beagle pup that grows into a 100 lb monster.. =]

ACA registrations are most used by BYB's and puppy mills. Thus why it is of less quality then AKC..

However, neither are direct reflections of temperment or health, just one promises what your dog really is, and the other only sort of promises.

The AKC will register any pup whose supposed parents are registered with the AKC. It guarantees nothing, it promises nothing. They rely solely on the integrity of the breeder. A dogs genes are what determine whether or not it is a "purebred", not the registration papers.

[ChristineLVT]

While each post that started being posted was informative and quite correct, together as a whole, they appear quite bullying if indeed this person doesn't know any better and was here for advice. I know most of us feel strongly against this 'breeding', but do know that 5 people writing basically the same thing over and over without even giving her an answer (should have said 'sorry, you won't find a stud on this thread. here's why looking online and this type of breeding aren't a good idea...) is definitely overwhelming for a newbie. People are much less likely to change their minds about their plans when this occurs, than having a knowledgeable person both answer them then give them information in the most objective manner possible than throwing it around like negative opinions, this then makes them tell whoever agrees with their breeding practice about the neurotic 'peta type people' online (and ugh, I hate PETA).

Hope no one takes offensive at THIS. I think every post was well written and smart. But overall, wow, imagine the person's response to come back to all THIS now... things need to be toned down with new people and we don't need every person giving the same response in different wording.

:)

[Danielle]

While each post that started being posted was informative and quite correct, together as a whole, they appear quite bullying if indeed this person doesn't know any better and was here for advice. I know most of us feel strongly against this 'breeding', but do know that 5 people writing basically the same thing over and over without even giving her an answer (should have said 'sorry, you won't find a stud on this thread. here's why looking online and this type of breeding aren't a good idea...) is definitely overwhelming for a newbie. People are much less likely to change their minds about their plans when this occurs, than having a knowledgeable person both answer them then give them information in the most objective manner possible than throwing it around like negative opinions, this then makes them tell whoever agrees with their breeding practice about the neurotic 'peta type people' online (and ugh, I hate PETA).

Hope no one takes offensive at THIS. I think every post was well written and smart. But overall, wow, imagine the person's response to come back to all THIS now... things need to be toned down with new people and we don't need every person giving the same response in different wording.

:)


Who in particular is doing the bullying?

Me? Steven? LML? Anne? As I said before, I didnt see one post that could be considered as bullying. If there was, Im sure K9mania would've deleted it, or the whole thread for that matter. People are stating their opinions, and stronly too, as they believe in what they are saying whole heartedly.

You can hardly censor peoples opinions on a public forum if its not what you want to hear Christine.

[Momto3]

Actually I thought I gave some positive feedback (post #6). I sure don't bully people for their decisions no matter if I disagree.

[Jr_K9_Expert]

While each post that started being posted was informative and quite correct, together as a whole, they appear quite bullying if indeed this person doesn't know any better and was here for advice. I know most of us feel strongly against this 'breeding', but do know that 5 people writing basically the same thing over and over without even giving her an answer (should have said 'sorry, you won't find a stud on this thread. here's why looking online and this type of breeding aren't a good idea...) is definitely overwhelming for a newbie. People are much less likely to change their minds about their plans when this occurs, than having a knowledgeable person both answer them then give them information in the most objective manner possible than throwing it around like negative opinions, this then makes them tell whoever agrees with their breeding practice about the neurotic 'peta type people' online (and ugh, I hate PETA).

Hope no one takes offensive at THIS. I think every post was well written and smart. But overall, wow, imagine the person's response to come back to all THIS now... things need to be toned down with new people and we don't need every person giving the same response in different wording.

:)

I'm on quite a couple other forums and even the more constructive and nicest responses don't work for two main reasons: 1. They usually don't listen 2. They take offense anyway.

They want to think of us as extremist? Go ahead, that doesn't make our information any less true.

Goodness, and if THIS makes them get offended....well then I don't want to know how they deal with their bosses:D :D

[snazyminis]

Some people will take offence if they aren't getting the answer they like, but hey, that's the risk you take when you ask on a public forum.

Having several people repeat the same thing, just means what the first person said was right and that there are reasons behind that, not just a case of one person getting on their high horse and talking down or lecturing a newbie.

On some forums I have seen people get flammed for less, but those who want to learn will read the replies and think about what has been said and come back and ask more questions and go on to make a more concidered decision about their future plans with their dog.