Shara Stay HELP

[Shara]

Bah I been working her stays for a month now, making it all positive. When I step off and say stay, I give her a treat, I throw treats at her durring the stay. She has stopped shaking nervously at home.

I go to the club last night, after 1 month off and working alone. Shara busts her stays left and right. Mind you the club is a familiar place to her now, and she just would not stay for ANYTHING.

I went out of sight, she stayed better with me out of sight. At home I can leave her for 10mins and she will stay in the house.

My trainer invited me to the club tonight to work on her, but I dont want to travel to the city AGAIN...to work on this, but Abiline is just next weekend and she is NOT solid on her stays. I just cannot crack her on this, I do NOT know what I am doing wrong.

Ive tried EVERYTHING, all the advice, Ive stuck with X method, only for her to break the stay. Then try another method, she breaks the stay.

My trainer has tried EVERYTHING too, from being rough with her, to giving her treats as she stays for me (to make the 'judge' seem good)

We have put moving objects infront of her, thrown balls, everything, she will stay. SHe will shake but she wil stay. But then go to a competition, she busts.

ANY clue what is going on with her, any suggestions we have not tried? I need help, I am at my wits end.

Last night was the last straw for me mentally as a trainer, I cannot keep doing this with her, its a rollercoaster ride mentally, When I work on her work work work we think we got it down, go test it out she busts.

I thought her stand for exam was an issue, this is no comparrison. I do not know what I am going to do.

[Furbilator]

First, dare I say take a chill pill. :) I know this is important to you but you are taking this WAYYYYYY too seriously. Your frustration may and probably is rubbing off on the dog and causing some of the mishaps. Other mishaps may be because the dog isn't having fun or isn't getting the pleasureable response from obeying as she once did. Take a step away from training for a while, have some fun with her and practise building or rebuilding the bond between you and her first before you go back to training. Perhaps she will never be the perfect 'stayer' or 'obeyer'. Accept that and be happy with what she can give you at any moment in time. Dogs live in the moment and sometimes that moment doesn't correspond with our plans. LOL

Furbs

[Shara]

First, dare I say take a chill pill. :) I know this is important to you but you are taking this WAYYYYYY too seriously. Your frustration may and probably is rubbing off on the dog and causing some of the mishaps. Other mishaps may be because the dog isn't having fun or isn't getting the pleasureable response from obeying as she once did. Take a step away from training for a while, have some fun with her and practise building or rebuilding the bond between you and her first before you go back to training. Perhaps she will never be the perfect 'stayer' or 'obeyer'. Accept that and be happy with what she can give you at any moment in time. Dogs live in the moment and sometimes that moment doesn't correspond with our plans. LOL

Furbs

Furbs,
I am going to comp end of this month, I do need to get this soild. Shara is fine on everything else. We have a soild bond, infact people say she wants to come to me so bad thats why she whines on the stays and eventually breaks to come to me.

I am having fun with Shara, we are even doing directive jumps, retrieves over jumps, and go outs, all which are fun and I had a good time last night TILL we did stays and she kept busting.

I took a months break from the club and classes, and worked on stays. I go to the club last night and shes breaking stays left and right. Somehow she doesnt know what I am asking or shes having seperation anxiety attacks. I do not know which it is or how to fix it.

The fact is I was COMPLETELY confident in Shara last night on her stays, I was on the other side of the ring talking and stuff, hanging out. There was NO tention in me whatsoever. Then she broke the stay, I went over and corrected it, only for her to pop up again and again. We took a break, did some retrieves and jumps, did some stays afterwards, I had 5 people stay and help be distractions and still she broke.

[dobetaztic]

well unless i am missing something which i could be since not been on here for so long, but i would say you not trained enough in different situations, if she will stay in house and at the club what about on a busy street, a park where there are strange dogs and children and noises, outside a school or a shopping centre if you not done the exercise in these places and mastered it then why would she do it in a strange field or room surrounded by dogs she dont know lots of noise and strange people. more variation in enviroments is needed to do such things. then you may see a change.

i would also not give rewards or treets unless the exercise has been successful you should be at the stage that you put in stay walk away come back and finish before a reward is done, if you reward periodically while being in a stay this could also increase the anticipation and increase her to move. also take some kalms you threating will increase her awareness and if you get more anxious because you think she will not perform the exercise then that is felt down the lead and makes dog more anxious.

take a deep breath go in do the exercise if she brakes it in training go back put here back in position and move again don not speek to here limit contact do not fuss or reward keep putting back till she stays if after 5 attemps she brakes go do some thing she can just egnore the incorrect behaviur pick lead up and do some thing easy and get the rewards going and excitement up once back on positive try again keep trying and braking from exercise till she does it, just no fuss or reward for incorrect behaviours,

on day of the compatition go in the ring breath deep to calm your self put your self in mind set if she does she does what the hell, put in position and leave when told if she brakes it nothing you can do but keep trying. at end of day its not the end of the world, i know been there and done it had a champion obediance dobe who one day would be rock solid the next would move like crazy it comes and just think its just experience for you both enjoy it.

[Shara]

I somewhat understand what you are saying. But first I had to make the whole sitation positive with her, thats why I had to keep giving her treats throughout the exercise, so she would quit shaking and shivering (anxiety?)

We have done all of these exercises:

Putting strain on the leash when she is on the stay to make her 'work' at staying.

Putting her on top of a box.

Putting a bracket around her to stay in.

The 'judge' giving her treats throughout the stay. (we thought she was having anxiety towards the judges but shes not)

Throwing toys/distratctions.

Clapping and stomping (to recreate the anxiety she would have in a ring , she could care less)

People dancing around her (she could care less)

Purposly pulling her over on a sit or down, and then me go correct her.

Dogs on either side sitting, while shes on a down stay. Dogs on either side down while shes on a sit stay.

Shes been in training for 2 years, so we have tried all of these methods...I take her to petsmart/petco when I can in the city.

Like I told my trainer, its purely Russian Roulett with her, I dont know why she decides to stay sometimes sne doesnt. What I want/need is a solid stay...its a simple as 'come when called'....

We practice stays every night at the dinner table, she gets scraps, ultimate treat right! She does fine!

So I am at a loss of what exactly I should do.

We have also experimented with if I stare her down in the ring, or look around, or turn and not look at her at all. Sometimes she stays sometimes she doesnt.

[lucysnewmum]

just had a thought Shara! chill out a bit and be proud of what she does achieve! No single dog in history has been 100% and if anyone begs to different ask any reliable trainer!! There is always going to be the dog that 'breaks' for whatever reason best known to themselves. I can understand that you want to do the best you can in the competition but maybe the stay isnt the dogs forte. Maybe she will excel at some other activity.....don't set your dog up for a fall....be confident in yourself but don't expect perfection! This only happens in the movies :)

[Shara]

I just need her to stay for 2 more shows, then we will move on to open where I have to actually leave the ring and go outta sight for several minutes...so I do need her to get this down :p She seems better when I am out of sight/out of mind.

I hate it I come here to post frustrations and am told I am expecting perfect or expecting too much or something, when she excells in other parts of the competition. The thing is it doesnt matter if she scores a 200 and then busts the stay...its all out the window. I NEED to get her to stay and I need some advice to get her that way. I have only a few days and I am running out of time.

Shes not a dumb dog and I am not expecting too much from her, she can do this and I do have confidence in her, why she has anxiety I wish I knew why.

Wish she would just bloomin stay.

[Furbilator]

As I read the first post I could feel your frustrations and hence I sensed that you were taking it too much to heart. Just do the best you can and let the chips fall where they may. Who knows, she may surprise you come show day and stay like her butt is glued down. You will just have to accept whatever performance she gives you and keep working at it if she fails.

Two paws forward some days and three paws backwards other days.

Good Luck,
Furbs

[Shara]

As I read the first post I could feel your frustrations and hence I sensed that you were taking it too much to heart. Just do the best you can and let the chips fall where they may. Who knows, she may surprise you come show day and stay like her butt is glued down. You will just have to accept whatever performance she gives you and keep working at it if she fails.

Two paws forward some days and three paws backwards other days.

Good Luck,
Furbs


Oh Furbs,

I am very frustrated. As I think she has it down, only for her to just flip out and not stay. I am very proud of her, she has come a long way. I just want her to succeed and show everyone what a good team we are and how hard we try and how smart she is.

I am going back to the city tonight for another class to see if we can try things to get her to stay. And going to petsmart AND petco to practice before then...

I will let yall know what happens tonight...I really got to get this down!

[Jr_K9_Expert]

So you say she has perfect stays at home and stuff, even with the most distracting of distractions yet when she goes to the ring she breaks them?

Isn't the problem obvious? Its the people.

Just curious have you tried practicing the stays with COMPLETE strangers around? And how many at one time?

If you haven't, I suggest you start doing so, start with one and then work your way up to a good group. Best if you do it also in an area that that she's never gone with you to.

Also, is she REALLY REALLY food motivated? If not, I wouldn't concentrate so much on giving her food treats while she stays. Put yourself in her shoes (if she had any :D), when you are away and she is sitting all by herself, do you think that the biggest reinforcer is a piece of food? I would think not. The biggest reinforcer is coming to you. Have her stay for a while, praise her verbally, and then call her to you quickly (and not till now give her a treat). What you want to get her to understand is that she will eventually get to come to you, but first she must do what you ask. If she breaks her stay the best discourager you can use is to ignore her (not corrections).

Anywho, maybe you already knew this but I guess it was worth mentioning *shrugs* :p

Best of wishes! I'm sure she'll pull through!!

[Shara]

Thank you Steven,

We have a very large club, so we have practiced stays with many strangers and strange dogs, sometimes she has no problem with it, sometimes she just cant handle it.

Last night I had a friend go in for the sits and downs...used to you could let someone else do sits and downs for you, but we read the rule book and they changed that rule...either way, she busted BIG time, she wouldnt stay for my friend for all the cookies in the world!

We are trying what is called "bad toy" and the "bingo box".

The "bad toy" is a toy you lean against the dog, and if it moves, you go and grab the toy and say "bad toy you moved it!" I dont know, seems crazy but if it works it works...

Also the "bingo box" is a box of treats placed behind her and behind the number card you have in the ring...and we are going back to her random times to reward, so shes concentrating on "the box behind her with cookies" instead of "momma being across the ring and i cant get up to go to her"

We are trying everything to get this down, and we have a lot of people pouring in suggestions and trying to help me. Thank you guys for listening and trying to help!

Will keep you posted!

[gsdmama]

This is how I taught Joey and Elsa to do their 5 minute down stay and sit stays. Since we have laminate flooring thru out the house I found it easier to use a area rug.

I first put them in a heel position. using a firm voice( I have to with these guys) I tell them to stay and I also used a hand signal. I would then step out with my right foot and turn right in front of them. I started with close up work right in front of them. I started with very short times. oh and once I got them to stay at that distance and time I then add it walking back and forth in front of them. I then added distance and increased the time and walking back and forth. we are up to a 30 foot distance and 1/2 hour down stay. I work them in the house to while I am cooking I put them on a area rug next to each other right outside the kitchen and they will stay there till I say "ok". I will do that with all of my chores. So I get their training in while I am cleaning. If I am in the laundry room I do the same as when I am cooking. I then let them play and I get a break and when I move on to the next chore I call them and I will place them outside of where I am working like I will have them do a down stay outside of the bathroom while cleaning. One important thing is that if they break I march them back to the same spot and tell them stay firmly. They understand that they don't get to move till I tell them.

[Shara]

gsdmama,

Thats how I was taught to train Shara her stays, works for Tigger, but Shara just gets the nervous shakes in the ring, hard to explain.

We think shes giving me a time limit "ive been away from mom too long..." or something. We have tried everything to get her to stay, the best thing is I can stay out of site and she will stay better, why...I do not know..."out of site out of mind?" comes to mind...she doesnt see me across the room and want to come to me.

The 'bad toy/bingo box' thing, I wont know if it is working till we try it out...But I have been working her these past 2 nights and I have gotten a few corrections.

This time next week I will be on the road to the dog show, so we got 1 week to crack this...Just hope we can !!!

[Shara]

Things are just not working out for us with Shara, she busted her stays tonight, as if shes never been told to stay before. She was around familiar dogs...

My trainer was very upset, and frustrated as well, we have been working it for a week, and she seemed to get the idea at home. Went to the club and things fell apart.

We did two sets of stays and she just failed miserbly. I dont even want to go to the dog show anymore, even though it is costing me close to 500 bucks to go, entry fees, hotel...gas...sigh.

I have never felt so let down and just...feel like giving up on her at this point...I know that sounds bad, but we have tried EVERYTHING you can think of to get her to stay...

Its a shame too because she already knows the Open stuff so well...

I am not sure what we are going to do...I guess go to Abiline and bust on the stays again with near perfect scores...I doubt she will stay...

I feel like crying.

[Momto3]

Maybe she needs a handler? Take yourself outta the picture. Sounds too stressful to me. When it's not fun anymore, what's the point kinda thing. jmho

[gsdmama]

Meredith. Don't give up. I am going to ask my trainer who has been training dogs in the ring for over 25 years. Hopefully I will have an answer for you soon. I know it can be nerve racking.

anna

[Jr_K9_Expert]

Yes, I'll ask around too, maybe someone's got an ingenous idea that we (or your trainers) haven't thought about.

Best wishes!

[Jr_K9_Expert]

Hey Shara, I'm just curious are dogs that compete not allowed to take medication? I'm asking because, as I think you know, Shara breaks her stays because shes frightened, so don't you think that anxiolytic medication (Anxiety medication) would help her concentrate better? I've heard that sometimes the only one way to train a dog to not be scared of something is to give them a low dosage of anxiolytics medication and then ween her off of it meanwhile you train to the point to where she no longer needs the medication anymore.

Anywho, I don't know if you are allowed (or even if you want to) to do this, if not then scratch that! :p

[Shara]

Hey Shara, I'm just curious are dogs that compete not allowed to take medication? I'm asking because, as I think you know, Shara breaks her stays because shes frightened, so don't you think that anxiolytic medication (Anxiety medication) would help her concentrate better? I've heard that sometimes the only one way to train a dog to not be scared of something is to give them a low dosage of anxiolytics medication and then ween her off of it meanwhile you train to the point to where she no longer needs the medication anymore.

Anywho, I don't know if you are allowed (or even if you want to) to do this, if not then scratch that! :p


Hey Steven,

I have tried anti anxiety meds with her, 2 diffrent types, didnt have an effect on her really, so I stopped giving it to her.

I am 90% sure its anxiety thats getting the best of her, I am across the ring and she just cannot stand it. She starts crying. We thought giving her the 'job' of keeping the toy in place would take her mind off things. We thought the bingo box full of yummy cookies behind her would take her mind off things too...

Please let me know if you find anything else to try...I only have a few days.

[Jr_K9_Expert]

Hey Steven,

I have tried anti anxiety meds with her, 2 diffrent types, didnt have an effect on her really, so I stopped giving it to her.

I am 90% sure its anxiety thats getting the best of her, I am across the ring and she just cannot stand it. She starts crying. We thought giving her the 'job' of keeping the toy in place would take her mind off things. We thought the bingo box full of yummy cookies behind her would take her mind off things too...

Please let me know if you find anything else to try...I only have a few days.

Well the responses I got, might not help for the next competition but it might help in the long run.

One suggestion was to start Shara on a NILIF training program at home and have her stay for anything she might consider good. (I'm sure you know how it works).

The other was a link I was given with something called Protocol for Relaxation, looks like it has good info, maybe it might offer some help: http://dogscouts.org/Protocol_for_relaxation.html

[dobetaztic]

i actually think u need to avoid training the stay for a couple of days

YES i know the show this week end but now it sounds that neither of you want to do it personally avoid training any stay 24 hours, then do a couple of very short stays i mean 30 seconds and poss a minute for the next day, but keep them short and reward every one even if ten seconds long, stop the frustration rest then short and dont do a full stay till the day in the ring and honestly i know its hard to take but if she brakes she does even if u decide to go back to her before the time is up ok u dont get the points but you will have shown her she done good that your not disapponted there are other shows and if thats what is needed to show her then go back to her before she brakes.

if i was a judge or a trainer i would aplaude some one who had the guts to do such a thing because it means that nest show the stay is proberly going to be more solid. dont forget dogs pick up on our emotions so they can sence of sorts disapointment even if u dont think u are showing it so by finishing her before it happens you give her a positive reaction

just a sugestion it is something i have done before and reaped the rewards the next compertition.

[lucysnewmum]

Maybe she needs a handler? Take yourself outta the picture. Sounds too stressful to me. When it's not fun anymore, what's the point kinda thing. jmho

sorry Shara....i love u to bits and ur fur baby.....but i agree with this one! and if you are stressed she is going to pick up on it and panic!!!! try her with another handler with you out of sight...if she does it you have your answer.

i also agree with Dobe....back off a bit....i know you are keen to do well but maybe going back to basics and doing short wait and stays will have the desired effect when it comes to her doing the longer one in the comp!!!

good luck all the same. i hope you do well in the end. MWA!

[Shara]

We had a snow storm, so problably not gonna make 1 of the days, we might make the Sunday show.

I am kinda glad, because we are not ready...I wish I could get my entry fees back, we already canceled the hotel room for Friday night

[lavenderlil]

Shara, in my 32yrs of experience with dogs i have always found that it is not always right to harp on about STAY in my experience it was always better to learn WAIT for non emergency and only use STAY as a dire emergency
eg the fear/threat to the pet or you or situation or something similar.
You might now have to wait yourself till the dog feels it understands the absolute need in an emergency of STAY.
Lavender Lil

[gsdmama]

so how did Sunday go??