Advice needed ASAP 8mo tied with 2yo

[tavollbracht]

Hello,
Can you offer advice, hints anything???

I have four dogs, three bitches and one dog. I 'breed' kinda I have had one litter, but it is a hobby.

My 8mo is in her first heat cycle. My dog who loves his job dug two feet down! to get out and before I knew it I heard my baby yelping, run outside and they have tied! She had only been out for about 5 mins! it really is all it takes.

Aside from how this happened, it has happened. I don't agree with abortion, my dogs are members of my family. But how risky is it for her! I am caught in a total conundrum and can find no information on the risks of the 'shot' my vet can give her or letting her go through with it. I feel like I can't make an informed decision because I can't get any information.

Any and all information would be very helpful. Have you found yourself in this horrible situation?
Please help, I must make a decision by tomorrow morning! (if she is going to get the shot it must be on the third and fifth day)

A :confused: :( :mad: :eek: dog lover!
Amy

[flip195]

Hello,
Can you offer advice, hints anything???

I have four dogs, three bitches and one dog. I 'breed' kinda I have had one litter, but it is a hobby.

My 8mo is in her first heat cycle. My dog who loves his job dug two feet down! to get out and before I knew it I heard my baby yelping, run outside and they have tied! She had only been out for about 5 mins! it really is all it takes.

Aside from how this happened, it has happened. I don't agree with abortion, my dogs are members of my family. But how risky is it for her! I am caught in a total conundrum and can find no information on the risks of the 'shot' my vet can give her or letting her go through with it. I feel like I can't make an informed decision because I can't get any information.

Any and all information would be very helpful. Have you found yourself in this horrible situation?
Please help, I must make a decision by tomorrow morning! (if she is going to get the shot it must be on the third and fifth day)

A :confused: :( :mad: :eek: dog lover!
Amy

Second, get your dog to the vet now and either get her spayed or get the morning after pill if it is within 24hours.

A litter of pups at such a young age could kill her, if it does not kill her it will most likely lead to damage to the pelvic area as at 8 months old the bone structure is still developing, this means in later life, as early as 4 years old your dog could very well suffer serious arthritic problems, at worst it could actually cause pelvic deformity.

I have never been in this position with any of my dogs as I am a responsible owner whose animals are all fixed, however as I am also a rescuer I have dealt with this issue before, and the outcome has NEVER been good for the dog.
We had one who died because the pups were to big, delivery ripped open her uterus, she bled internally. One died because she had to have a c-section; again the pups were to big. One suffered a displaced pelvis. One delivered and had no idea what to do and we ended up feeding 8 puppies every 2 hours day and night, only 2 survived inspite of our best efforts. One delivered and raised the pups, but having the pups depleted her so badly she had to have $3000 worth of vet treatment to keep her alive. These dogs were to far pregnant to abort otherwise they would have been spayed as soon as they came in.
The risk to small to medium size dogs (10lb to 75lb) is increased 100%, as opposed to bigger dogs (75lb and up.)

[tavollbracht]

dear flip195,
I don't think you can dare to presume that I am unresponsible. Secondly, I am a breeder. It is a hobby because there is no money in it and it is MY tongue in cheek way of saying so.

If you have nothing positive to say, then please don't respond. Your negativity in an already tough situation is far from helpful.
Kindly,
Amy

[flip195]

dear flip195,
I don't think you can dare to presume that I am unresponsible. Secondly, I am a breeder. It is a hobby because there is no money in it and it is MY tongue in cheek way of saying so.

If you have nothing positive to say, then please don't respond. Your negativity in an already tough situation is far from helpful.
Kindly,
Amy

If your a breeder you should already know the answer to the question you posed.
By not aborting this litter there is a very good chance you will kill your dog.

If my response seemed a little edgy it's because I am just had to deal with some idiot who let there 9month old get pregnant. When the dog required a c-section they dumped it at the vets and said kill it.
I now have a very sick, anemic BC mix that is barely strong enough to raise her head, (she can't even stand without collapsing,) and 3 very sickly 4 day old pups that are being fed every 2 hours, the pups are failing, and my heart is breaking once again, as I clean up some irresponsible owners mess, once again.:mad:

[k9mania]

We should be treating each other with respect when sharing ideas and debating such issues as who should be breeding and when. I believe that helping each other by suggesting where to get professional help and providing knowledgeable advice is better than hitting each other over the head. If one is a breeder that has not encountered such problems because they have not bred for long, it may be that they would not know the answer to such a question. But I think it brings up some good issues to discuss related to backyard breeders and if there should be some consequences levied to those who do not spay and neuter their dogs. But not all rescues are due to bad breeding situations, there are lots of dogs in the shelters and rescue situations due to lack of knowledge about dog training and care that leads to unwanted, dumped, and abused dogs. This forum can help educate those people by sharing care and training strategies. Not only so that those who do not have the experience can learn, but so those of us who are experienced can share with each other and we can debate such issues in a way that we continue to add to our knowledge base to enhance the lives of K9s and their human companions while providing educational opportunities for the less experienced human companions.

[tavollbracht]

Just an update, I posted this question on more than one website. The breeder I bought her from gave me the most information however. He understands that I bought her to breed from, it took me two years to find the line I was looking for. He has never found himself in this situation, but kennels his dogs. She is going to the vets in a few minutes to terminate any possible pregnancy. My parents were breeders and I have been breeding for several years but have only had one litter, so no, this is something I have never come across.
The main thing I have learned from this is to question the wisdom of having a stud dog and breeding bitches. We have already started re-doing his run and have put my loved and cherished pet penny in with him to keep him company. We are putting concrete slabs all around the borders.
Tolerance is a great thing, but I have never abused a dog and would never! It must be hard to deal with the dogs from people who clearly don't care, and I tip my hat to the people that do. I would never have posted the question had I thought Iwould be bombarded with the thoughts of what a horrible person I must be.

Mistakes happen, that is life. These dogs are members of my family. Taking Lola to the vet this morning is no easier than taking my own daughter to the doctor. They are very well loved, feed the best diet I can give them (raw food diet) are inside dogs, etc. I do feel now that I am put in a position of defending myself to all that read this. I will however continue to be a responsible loving dog owner and lover!
Have a great Christmas

[k9mania]

Amy,

I do apologize for the tone of the message. If I had caught it before you saw it I would have pulled it. I hope that you believe me when I say that that tone is not representative of the entire forum and I will do a better job of monitoring such things.

[flip195]

Amy,

I do apologize for the tone of the message. If I had caught it before you saw it I would have pulled it. I hope that you believe me when I say that that tone is not representative of the entire forum and I will do a better job of monitoring such things.

Allow me to explain something here, I tend to be out spoken, I call things as I see them, I do not sugar coat anything, most times people appreciate the honesty of my statements. However being on a message board one cannot truly get the tone of the statements.

The other day I sat here nursing a dying puppy, trying to get it to suckle, in the far corner a very sick BC mom was trying to nurse her 3 remaining pups, however she has no milk, the pups are crying and groaning, I know there is a very good chance I will not save any of them. These animals are now under my care because someone allowed the dog to get pregnant for their amusement, then I read about a situation that is almost the same, someone’s dog got pregnant by accident But, because so many ppl do breed animals for a HOBBY or for money, a healthy animal is killed every 6.5 seconds in a shelter, pound, rescue etc. It is ppl like me that pick up the pieces of this HOBBY, we do what we can to make good the negligence of these ppl, for everyone we save 100 die.

I beleive that we would have less dogs in shelters and at a health risk if every breeder did these things.

Each litter should have homes lined up before they are born.
Both adult animals should have the all clear on the relative health tests for their breed.
Pre-natal checks should be done on a regular basis throughout the pregnancy.
Money should be set aside incase emergency treatment is needed.
All pups should be fully health checked and vaccinated before going to the new owners.
All pups should be fixed, unless you are a showing breeder, in which case all pet quality pups should be fixed prior to leaving your home.
Contracts on the pups should be in place.
No dog under 2 years old should be bred.
No dog should have more than 1 litter a year.
No dog should have more than 5 litters in its lifetime.
Breeding females should (Ideally) be retired at 5 years.
Males should be retired at 8 years.
All breeding dogs should be tested for genetic defects and illnesses such a Burcellosis.
The bottom line is breeding should NOT BE A HOBBY!!!

If one was considering breeding but has not done all of their homework about potential problems, costs involved, time involved, etc. They should spay or neuter their dogs until they are ready and then bring a breeding dog into as ideal a situation as possible.

[k9mania]

I have changed Flip195's post to take out the tone that would minimize discussion because people will be afraid to be challenged with tone. I teach my students without the respectful exchange of ideas and debate there will never be change, nor will people get new information to make better choices. Flip195 made very good points. I also teach the students that tone and attitude come through loud and clear in letters, emails, and papers. Not understanding that could cost them a job, a friend, a business deal, etc. My goal for this forum is through the exchange of ideas and respectfully debating issues we can enhance the lives of K9s and their human companions:)

[flip195]

I have changed Flip195's post to take out the tone that would minimize discussion because people will be afraid to be challenged with tone. I teach my students without the respectful exchange of ideas and debate there will never be change, nor will people get new information to make better choices. Flip195 made very good points. I also teach the students that tone and attitude come through loud and clear in letters, emails, and papers. Not understanding that could cost them a job, a friend, a business deal, etc. My goal for this forum is through the exchange of ideas and respectfully debating issues we can enhance the lives of K9s and their human companions:)

Sorry K9, but what you changed my words to do not reflect my beliefs whatsoever regarding Amy's breeding practices. Nothing Amy has said covinces me she is not a BYB.

If you want to delete my posts all well and good, your board, your rules, but please, respect me enough not to put words into my mouth.

I asked several questions that you deleted. To be honest I want answers, I need/want someone to explain to me why answers to the problem were not known before the incident occured, I do not believe that is unreasonable.
Any responsible breeder would have known what action to take.

I would also like to point out I did not introduce the term HOBBY into this conversation.

[k9mania]

Flip195, I apologize for putting words in your mouth if I did. However, those questions were directed at a person and you assumed "hobby" meant something she did not. I did leave the jest of the post. The things that every person should think about. The forum should not be where when we are passionate about an issue that we don't tone down the way we address each other. Your other posts have been helpful. Here you crossed a line by taking all of your frustration about all the irresponsible breeders in the world out on one person who asked a sincere question. Many of those that you were discusssing did not even try to get the answers, she did. So please make your points without making it so people will not ask the questions out of fear of people making them look bad, stupid, or ignorant. We all appreciate the work people like you do. I know that it tears your heart out to see those dogs.

[tavollbracht]

Flip,

I came on to this site for help and advice. How my Lola got into that situation was not as important to me at that moment than what to do that was in her best interest.

I have no idea what BYB is, so am not sure what you are saying about me. However do not feel I need to answer your questions. If you need answers, I am sorry, but you have already made your mind up about me. I feel there is nothing that could be said at this point to change that.

The fact of the matter is that my little bitty dog dug down two feet to get to my girl, and I have already made it impossible for it to happen again. Life happens, these things happen. I am sorry that dealing with everyone else's bad pet ownership skills has made you synical, but that was not me. I am sorry that you have had to watch life slowly go away from those dear dogs, but that was not my dog.

Your attitude when you typed your response was one of 'here we go again, another stupid dog owner' and that has not changed.

You jumped to conclusions, but maybe I should of put more information as to how it happened.

All I would say is that everyone else but you is not a bad animal owner. I am nothing if not complete in my study. I would challenge you to show me a book that covers the topic I needed in an in depth way that would be able to give me the information like the people on this forumn with years of experience. I would also challenge you to find a breeder who thought beforehand and prepared for the possibility! The fact is, that if I were a BYB?? or bad breeder, I would never had put the question up in the first place. I would of done nothing, found it was too much and you would be left to clean up the mess. The very fact that I posted such a question was the biggest clue as the type of person I am.

We are all guilty at some point in time of having a bad day and jumping to wrong conclusions. I have done it. It is life, it happens.

I could not begin to put into words on this post the questions this 'accident' has made me ask myself, I am hard enough on me already. I also apologise for my use of the word 'hobby.' I suggest that we have different definitions, and also that you are maybe a bit sensitive (understandably so) to things. Breeding for me is to better the breed, to give the dog a chance to bring joy into someones life, and to feel the joy of someone else's love. My breeding stock was specially selected and sought after for years. All my litters are presold, I have a waiting list. I have only had one litter mind you, but I have homes for five more dogs should I need them. I am passionate about the breed I have chosen, and feel that they are the best dog in the world. I think everyone should own one! I can also say that the number of ckcs that end up in rescue centres is the lowest of all breeds in this country. I also have a lifetime return policy, if for some reason the owners can not keep one of the puppies they bought from me, they can always bring them back to a good home. I assure you I love all dogs, whether they were breed by me or not. I vet all homes, not one puppy goes to a home I haven't seen. I also will not sell a puppy to someone who works all day. These are only a few of the things I do to ensure that my dogs will live long healthy lives. They are feed on a 'species appropriate diet' meaning all raw meat and bones and love it! All my puppies are weaned onto that diet and thankfully the new owners have adopted that way of feeding. I have a 5 page fact sheet on the breed, best diet, exercise, grooming, etc, etc, etc. Not one I downloaded, one I did myself. But how could you know all that?

I hope that you will have a good day and not be burdened with the weight of anymore dog deaths this year. I know it will happen, that is life, I just hope you can have some Joy this Christmas.
All the best,
Amy