Designer dogs - What are your thoughts?

[nusee]

Nov. 14, 2005 — The "puggle," a cross between a beagle and a pug, has become so trendy, David Barber boasts, that a list of proud new owners of the designer dog sounds like an Oscar night lineup.

Jake Gyllenhaal, James Gandolfini, Sylvester Stallone and Julianne Moore are just some of Barber's recent customers — and new puggle owners.

"They've become popular to the point where 90 percent of requests are for this breed," says Barber, of Puppy Paradise in Brooklyn, N.Y. "It's like mixing a Versace bag and a Coach bag together — what do you get? You get the best of both without adding any of the problems."

Puggles are undeniably cute — and, Barber claims, his $950 puggle pups escape some of the genetic afflictions (bulging eyes) and character flaws (stubbornness) that sometimes plague purebred pugs and beagles. The mixed pup has been riding a wave of popularity after being featured on the cover of the New York Post, appearing in a "Good Morning America" segment and being mentioned in an episode of "The Ellen DeGeneres Show" when Gyllenhaal appeared as a guest.

But the popularity of puggles and other designer dogs, such as labradoodles (Labrador Retriever-Poodle mix) and schnoodles (a Miniature Schnauzer-Poodle mix), has become a contentious topic among communities of dog owners. Some argue the mixed breeds aren't breeds at all, but simply overblown, overpriced mutts, while others decry popularizing specially bred dogs when thousands of dogs languish in shelters.

"The problem with designer dogs is people might think they're trendy — and that's not a good reason to buy a dog," said Susan Smith, community relations manager for the Franklin County Animal Shelter in Columbus, Ohio. "And before they put down, say $1,200 for a labradoodle or puggle, they should look first in a shelter because they can probably find the same type of dog here."

Smith says her shelter often houses mixes such as puggles, labradoodles and other unique blends of dogs. They may not carry the designer dog label, but she says the mutts are just as cute as any pooch that has been featured lately in the media.


Mutts With a Designer Label?

Garry Garner, president of the American Canine Hybrid Club, says he gets loads of hate mail every day, accusing him of glorifying new breed mixes. His company offers $20 certificates of authentication to people who can demonstrate they are owners of the offspring of two different purebred dogs.


This article is an excerpt from and ABC news article by Amanda Onion

[Carol]

I know the AKC and CKC do not recognize any mixed breed as purebred. If a breeder can prove that each parent is a purebred something with the same health certificates required for any purebred re: hips, eyes, etc. then, he deserves some kind of recognition for his resulting puppies. But, in my experience, most so called breeders out there are not this responsible, hence the shelters are full of these designer puppies when owners can no longer deal with the horrendous vet bills for them.
They are adorable for sure but at what cost?

[skippygurl00]

at the end of the day these dogs are just mutts with a high price tag and cute names.people who breed them should be honest and declare them as mutts not some fancy breed.there will always be suckers who will be ripped off with an overpriced dog.shelters are full of these cross breeds,why does intentionally breeding them make them 'designer'?

[shell]

I'm all for x's; it's all that I have right now and I love them both very much. Thing is, they're both mutts. What... should I start calling my Bichon-Shih Tsu/ Mini Dachshund x a Bishihtshund and sell him for $1200.00? No! He's a mutt! I think that people who breed mutts on purpose and try to financially gain from it should be held responsible for their actions. Who knows what kind of harm they're causing these innocent critters? Animal shelters everywhere are overcrowded and these irrisponsble breeders are only adding to the problem.:mad:

[Moey]

I think the price of dogs, purebreed or not, has become unbelievable. I can't even imagine paying $400 for an animal let alone $1200.

I wouldn't want a papered dog. I don't see the point. My animals are not for show but for companionship. I have been told that my puppy Zoey would be a perfect show dog but I couldn't show if I wanted too because she is not papered and I intend to have her spayed very soon. I believe that if you don't intend to breed than all animals should be altered.

And why is it that a dog can not be shown if it has been altered and is not papered even if it is a perfect speciemen of the breed?

[Carol]

I am adopted by a purebred cocker spaniel Casey.
She was a breeder's dog until she was 5 yrs. old.
I am lucky she is healthy and happy and well behaved.
The breeder obviously loved her and treated her well
BUT she was used to create Designer Dogs.
It is insanity to take a dog that is perfect the way they are and
mix her with something other than her own breed.

[mabenido]

First, let me say, that I am fond of ALL dogs, mixed breed, purebred, mutts, whatever.. I love them all. Now, here's my two-cents on the designer dog craze:

If you are going to spend that kind of money on a dog... it should be a PURE breed from a GOOD breeder. The term 'designer dog' is just a gimmic some creative breeders came up with to make you spend lots of money on a mutt. That's what they are - mutts, plain and simple. If you want a mixed breed, please adopt one from a shelter instead of paying $1000 for it!!

One other thing... if you're getting the dog for the sake of it being a 'designer' breed, then you probably shouldn't be getting a dog anyway.

[Carol]

I agree with that for sure.
On another forum, we have been playing the Designer Dog Game.
Name two breeds and come up with a cute name for their puppies.
Most sensible people agree that Designer Dogs are one of the reasons so many dogs end up in Shelters. I just saw a site today that has to close and they have a few purebreds and a few Designer "poo" dogs and the rest are beautiful mixed mutts. They are desperately hoping to find homes for all the animals in the shelter and it is a race against time.
So sad....and it is the dogs who lose. The breeder got his money...the owner got a short period of ammusement...then the poor dog ends up in a cage.

Grrrr

[mabenido]

I recently came across this QUIZ (http://www.grumpybumpers.com/dogs/index.cgi) for one of my blog entries. You have to choose which dogs are 'designer dogs' and which ones came from a shelter. It's really neat. I got almost all of them wrong! It's impossible to tell the difference.

[toppers]

I breed mini wire-haired dachshunds, I only have 1-2 litters a year so don't get any ideas that I do it for financial gain! My pups mainly go to friends, any extra pups are advertised and I heavily vet any prospective owners. I am horrified to see the prices on Dachshunds and cross bred dachshunds. £850 for a dachshund bitch pup with no registration papers. The registration papers are supposed to guarantee the bloodline but people can easily register puppies over the internet and who checks on it all? How can anyone afford these dogs? I found one website that had loads of pugs, spaniels, yorkies all crossed with a poodle (lucky poodle stud!) to have non-moulting pets but what about the genetic abnormalities these breeds suffer from, have these people even contemplated what they are doing? £600 for a spoodle, puggle, yuddle. CRAZY

[shell]

I found this web site advertising a maltese/yorkie x... they are being called "morkies" and are being sold for $1200.00 a pop... Canadian! I don't think 1 of those dogs was over 6 lbs. That's totally insane! My MD x is only 15 lbs and that's as small as I'm willing to go. I honestly can't believe that people are shelling out $1200.00 for a runty "designer" dog- a mutt with a fancy name. Crazy people with more $ than brains? Yup.

[Meghanxx4]

OK this may sound like a dumb question, but whats a designer dog? is it a mix (2 breeds combined) or what?
Thanks,
Meghan

[skippygurl00]

its a cross breed dog with a cute name like puggle, maltipoo,and people charge a fortune for them,so basically its a mutt with a fancy name to make it sound like a new breed

[toppers]

chiuahua's are uk designer dogs at the moment. £1,200 (whats that in Canadian money?) All the WAG's and pop stars have them, they even sell designer hand bags and pushchairs for them!!! My daughter wanted a designer bag for her mini-daxie £149.99. It was pink leather. I laughed and said what are his legs for? (granted daxies have very short legs but after 3 miles cross country I'm tired and he isn't!) The designer 'mutts' are cheaper than most pedigrees. You are looking at £400 + for pedigree, £600 + for KC registered pedigree and nearly £200 for a dog from the shelter. I get contacted by 'old people' wanting to replace their daxies. Having paid £50 for their daxie 14 years ago they are shocked by todays prices. Genuine people who can give a dog a good home can not afford them, yet fashion following freaks buy a dog, the fashion changes and the dogs are advertised in the paper!

[katrina]

I think it's crazy to spent 100s of dollars on a dog when you can get one for less than 50 at a shelter. My newest puppy came from my cousin for free when she started school she found she had no time for him. She got him at the pound and I just found out he is a Chiweenie (A chiuhauha dauschund mix) I couldn't belive it i thought he was just a mutt I guess he still is just a fancy one:D He is very nervous and barks at everyone but he has gotten better in the last week now i can see he has a sweet personalty I am happy to give him a home

[Carol]

In Canada, the so called "Designer Breeds" are more expensive than some purebred dogs. It is crazy. As long as people seek them out and buy them this nonsense will continue.
They are mutts. They are not recognized breeds by the AKC or the CKC
and they end up in shelters just like any other dog.
I adopted a JackaBea and he is a wonderful pet but he has such short legs that when he lies down his legs and feet are suspended in mid air.
He has a JR head and legs and his torso is a sturdy Beagle.
The genius that decided these two breeds should unite in one dog needs a lobotomy.
Can you imagine these two breeds ever getting together on their own in the wild? I doubt it very much. I hope the female was the Beagle. Cannot imagine the torture if the female was the terrier.
Ridiculous.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s264/nanagoo/flyingjake.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s264/nanagoo/Jake.jpg

[k9mania]

I just found an ad for Border Collie/Corgi mix for $300. Our shelters in Central CA are filled with dogs and cats. Sometimes I think there should be a law about neutering and spaying if you are not a legitimate breeder. I have made it my mission as a college professor to educate students who buy dogs during their college years. Everywhere I have taught those dogs end up in shelters because the students are unprepared for parenthood. I now let any student of mine run their dog in my yard, let them use my clicker training videos, and teach them to crate train. I had one student from Korea who was chased down by a woman with a Pug. He did not speak good English and could not understand why she wanted to breed her male Pug to his female Beagle. I helped him make an appointment to have his dog spayed before he returned to South Korea. We must try to educate others in a way that we don't make those less knowledgeable feel as if we are judging so that we can influence in a positive way how they raise their K9 companions. :)

[toppers]

Hi
IT'S THE DAXIE IN THE PUP THAT MAKES IT BARK!
Daxies are very vocal dogs, you can socialise them til you are blue in the face but they will still bark! My daxies have gone to dog clubs from being pups, they are reasonably well trained and very well socialised, but still feel the need to bark! I distract them before they begin barking as I know the triggers.

[shawna]

hello.i would want to talk more with you on here with yahoomesseger..rose_householdcom@yahoo.com...don't feel bad i contacted you this way..

[shawna]

are you on with yahoo messeger yet?

[Carol]

As you know I have rescued/adopted two senior dogs. They are my babies and I am drawn to the senior dogs because they tend to be overlooked by others because they are not little puppies anymore.
Casey was a breeder's dog for Designer Dogs (she is purebred cocker)
She reached the age of 5 and was no longer useful so she was voted off the island.
Jake was owned by a family for 10 yrs. They lost their home and had to move to an apt. He was left alone for long days in a crate and they knew they had to find him a better life than that.
The thing that bothers me is that Jake is not neutered and now I have the worry of putting such an old dog under anaesthetic for something that will not offer him the same protection from disease as he could have had if this had been done when he was a puppy.
I also had to spay Casey at age 5 and she misses out on the 95% protection against mammary tumors because the surgery was so late.
I think any breeder who sells a pup on a spay/neuter contract should follow up and make sure the buyer fulfills his obligations.
The person who bought Casey should never have been allowed to breed her at all let alone to a different breed deliberately.
Jake was a family pet and should have been neutered as a puppy and hopefully he was never a father to any puppies because he is a weird mixture to say the least and so out of proportion.

They are both wonderful pets and deserve all the love and care that I can possibly offer them and they have a forever home now but if they had ended up in a shelter, they may have been overlooked and their lives shortened to say the least.

[toppers]

Hi Carol
I took Charlie in when he was 9 months old. The vet told me that it would be cheaper to have him put down rather than keep him due to his allergies. Imagine if he had gone to a shelter? We had good years together.:) I say check the shelters first, read a lot of books and take a good look at your life before getting a pet.:D Who cares if it's a pedigree or cross as long as you are all happy!

[chocaholic]

I myself could never put a price value on a dog. I love all animals. Chocolate labs being my babies. I just think that all dogs are priceless. I dont look at them because they are expensive I look at them with love and to me that is priceless. And I think some people do buy expensive breeds just to say that they have them. And then there are others that no matter the cost they loved the dog at first site and would pay whatever the price to make them their family. :)

[texasgirl]

I know the AKC and CKC do not recognize any mixed breed as purebred. If a breeder can prove that each parent is a purebred something with the same health certificates required for any purebred re: hips, eyes, etc. then, he deserves some kind of recognition for his resulting puppies. But, in my experience, most so called breeders out there are not this responsible, hence the shelters are full of these designer puppies when owners can no longer deal with the horrendous vet bills for them.
They are adorable for sure but at what cost?

Just like to point out real quick, that the resulting offspring from cross breeding are almost always healthier, smarter, and stronger than their parents through a mysterious process called hybrid vigor. There are almost never horrendous vet bills, and usually hardly any vets bills at all especially when compared to a pure bred animals vet bill.

That being said, no I don't support the intentional breeding of designer dogs for the purpose of making money and fooling ignorant people. I recently saw an ad for some kind of crossbred dogs, and according to the ad, the puppies came with papers! Ridiculous lies! Unfortunately, the world is full of gullible people.

[May209]

I love my mutts. They are awsome and I would recommend a mutt to anyone. As for paying an huge amount for one I don't think so. I own both pure and mutts they are all great and I didn't pay alot for either. Just like anything else people need to shop around and don't pay alot if you don't want to. It just depends!!!:)

[shell]

I've had both purebreds and mutts in my life. I currently own 2 of the latter. Mutts do tend to be smarter, healthier, and live longer than purebreds, but I would never pay an arm and a leg just to own something with a fancy name. My WGS x was $100.00 Canadian- a rescue, and my Miniature Dachshund x was a gift from a close family friend that had an oops. To me, they are both priceless.

[dobetaztic]

i feel that designer dogs are overpriced cross breeds that in england reach the soring price of upto £2000 how ever they do have some benifits in some crosses especially if research is taken in exploring wether genetic problems can be reduced. Also the orriginal breeders of the labradoodle was the guide dogs for the blind so they could offer none shedding dogs to the blind who had allergies to dog fur, this has now been taken up with other assisance dogs such as dogs for the deaf breading cockerpoos for a more smaller managable breed for people who couldnt manage a large dog. both breeding schemes are veryy succesfull and should be encouraged.

[Carol]

Would it not be wonderful if every person willing to spend $2000 on a Designer Dog would also get one dog from a Shelter as well? They might even find a Designer Dog there that is even better in the long run than the one that cost $2000.
They will definitely love both very much because nobody will know which one cost the most anyway.

[Shelley02]

And what about these new designer Panda sherds that a kennel in Canada started? These are about the worse designer dogs that I've ever seen. They had pictures on another forum and they are the most absolute ugly dogs I've ever seen. But they insist on calling then GSD...yuck.

[Carol]

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html

This is something that happened accidentally I believe.
There is a breeder in Kitchener Ontario
that has these mutations available.
There are some who are trying to attain separate breed status for them I understand.
As long as they are healthy and perform as they are supposed to, I am sure they will get what they want.

[lynnelouis]

I have a pug, Louis, he is great natured dog - and i think the "puggle" and all other "designer dogs" is cruelty. pugs are known to have breathing problems and generally dont live as long as other breeds due to this. So im sure breeding it with the beage or chihuahua' s to create a "chug" will only increase the health problems most pedigree dogs have. people are just going over the top now and are not caring about what effects mixing breeds will have on the health of the dog!!!:mad:

[raxel]

i think designer dogs are a waste of time. Only celebs have them really. It is nice to spoil your dog, but not to the exstreme. its a waste of time and money aswell.

[colliecrazy]

i hate the name!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and IMo stupid people paying way over the top for something that they think is different. I mean why pay more for a mixed breed when you can have the pure bred for a fraction of the price????

[Suz23]

What I LOVE is how people get these labradoodley things because' they dont shed' then give them up 2 months later when SHOCK HORROR they shed all over the house - err duh yeah that would be the lab part coming out then Honestly if you want a non shedding dog get a poodle, most labradoodles require just as much if not more grooming, and an poodle in a teddy bear clip looks just like a labradoodle except it really WONT shed all over your house.

All these names are just posh names for a crossbreed - well you know what i own a crossbreed and im proud of it and she doesnt need a silly breed name either!!

[toppers]

I didn't know labradoodles actually did shed! There are quite a lot of small dogs on the internet that are crossed with poodles to make none shedding varieties, If what you're saying is true than will the same thing happen with these?

[Suz23]

Some labradoodles dont shed - many do. The problem is that a lot of breeders arnt very honest about this. So some unsuspecting person comes along (and they havent done as much research as they shouldd ;) ) and thinks ohh both my kids ar asthmatic I will get a labradoodle as they dont shed - couple months later said dog is shedding everywhere and finds itself looking for a new home. And lets be honest Labs can shed for britain so stands to reason a labradoodle can do the same thing.

And yes any of these breeds that are crossed with poodles have the potential to shed, depends what they were bred with, some are not as bad as others but thats beside the point. The breeders should be a little more honest.
I have met a fair few labradoodles and only ONE didnt shed - the others all shed like labs.

[colliecrazy]

our friend has one and hes surprised that its shedding its coat after being told it wouldn't.

i do wonder if people know that much about the 2 breeds that make up the labradoodle.

[shell]

I came across this website selling "real native-american dogs". The website even went so far as to say that the real native-amercan dogs have all died out, but they were attempting to bring back the breed. I was under the impression that they were feeding the public a lot of hooey in order to make a quick buck by selling over-priced mutts that anyone can find at a shelter. My 1 mutt was $100.00 Canadian at my local vet clinic. These jokers were asking for $1000.00 Canadian for the same type of dog that I already have at home. Is anyone else of the opinion that this is a load of bull or am I crazy?

[Suz23]

Well look at it this way - if as you say they have said the 'real native american dogs have all died out' then yes its a load of rubbish - if they have all died out then they are not REAL native american dogs but crossbreeds that they hope to breed to look like them. Doesnt make them native american dogs though does it. I mean if I bred a dog from two dogs that just happened to grow into looking like a cocker spaniel would you say it was a cocker????? No it would be a crossbreed - God some people!!!

So no your not crazy !!!

[kaycee1214]

A designer dog is a mixed breed, in other words a mongrel

[allerdoodle]

im getting a cockapoo which is a designer dog and they defo are not mongrels no offence to mongrels there just a dog labradoodles do shed but depends on type of coat it has some shed more than others they are allergy friendly though

[skippygurl00]

just because a dog has a cute name like cockerpoo doesnt make it a purebred.its just a mongrel with a high price tag.save yourself hundreds of dollars and get one from the pound.there are thousands of "goodles,spoodles and cockerpoos" there.read up on these so called designer dogs.most of them come from puppy mills and backyard breeders that dont give a toss about the dogs only the $$$

[Suz23]

im getting a cockapoo which is a designer dog and they defo are not mongrels no offence to mongrels there just a dog labradoodles do shed but depends on type of coat it has some shed more than others they are allergy friendly though

It isnt a designer dog its a crossbreed - and possibly one with the potential to have all kinds of health problems. Whats designer about that :mad:

Labradoodles are not allergy friendly - most end up in rescue because the owners find they ARE allergic to them. Some are hypoallergenic I will give you that -but many are not.

Im just not going to say anymore - I think my feelings on the subject are clear.

Though I would like to ask what health tests the parents of your cockerpoo has had - have you checked back five generations - is there even five generations to the dogs breeding? If so what were the results of the checks.

[allerdoodle]

actually it is a designer dog and by the way what are goodles???????????????????????

[allerdoodle]

i didnt say it was a pure bred im a member on forum that is just about labradoodles and goldendoodles labradoodles are not garanteed to not shed but some dont

[Suz23]

Its not about it being purebred- it cant be purebred, only a breed with a proper standard that can be KC or AKC registered can be a purebred. And I repeat what I said - there is nothing designer about it im afraid. Its just a crossbreed - albiet a very cute one.

[skippygurl00]

some idiot called them designer,doesnt make them any more valuable,its just a mutt,sorry but that the fact!

[skippygurl00]

actually it is a designer dog and by the way what are goodles???????????????????????

just another stupid name for a mongrel for suckers who like to throw their money away

[dobetaztic]

though i dont agree with the designer name i think there is snobery here in this discusion as if we all look into the ancesters of all out breeds every one of them started by crossing one breed of dog to another like the dobermann known as a dobermann for 85 years to get the conformation, colour, tempermant a gent called louis dobermann crossed a genrman pincher, rotti, beauceron, and greyhound to get what we now know as a kennel club registed breed. and the doberman is not the only one when i was young mongrals were called first cross if you knew that at least one perant was pure bred. i can promise you in 10 years the labradoodle will be shown as a pure breed.

also again labradoodles and cockerpoos are being bred by two well known charities as working dogs as both are believed to have reduced malting and dont get the mite that causes asthma these charities are the guide dogs for the blind and hearing dogs.

[Suz23]

Yep and Canine Partners breed labradoodles and golden doodles for work.

Im not being a snob about it at all - I understand the need in some small part for new breeds. I am against these being bred willy nilly to make a fast buck - with the dogs suffering because the parents are never health tested. I hold some respect for those that do health test.

My concern is with so many old breeds being endangered I would rather see people spend time and effort in restoring these breeds than creating new ones. Granted labradoodles have been around a while now - but that does not excuse the ridiculous craze for crossing every breed imaginable and giving it a daft name and a high price tag.

[skippygurl00]

http://www.grumpybumpers.com/dogs/

[shell]

Just did your little quiz and I only got 1 wrong-the labradoodle. I really enjoyed it and I think that it proves your point. Good 1!

[ChillisMom]

though i dont agree with the designer name i think there is snobery here in this discusion as if we all look into the ancesters of all out breeds every one of them started by crossing one breed of dog to another like the dobermann known as a dobermann for 85 years to get the conformation, colour, tempermant a gent called louis dobermann crossed a genrman pincher, rotti, beauceron, and greyhound to get what we now know as a kennel club registed breed. and the doberman is not the only one when i was young mongrals were called first cross if you knew that at least one perant was pure bred. i can promise you in 10 years the labradoodle will be shown as a pure breed.

also again labradoodles and cockerpoos are being bred by two well known charities as working dogs as both are believed to have reduced malting and dont get the mite that causes asthma these charities are the guide dogs for the blind and hearing dogs.


You are right when you say all breeds of dogs have been cross bred to make that certain type of dog, but all those dogs were cross bred with the intentions for the dog to be able to work and to help people (ie. retrievers, hounds, sled dogs... The list goes on). These dogs are being bred simply because they look cute and some greedy person wants to line the inside of their pockets... And with the over crowding in shelters, good sound dogs being killed because there is just simply no room, I think it is a completely irresponsible thing for someone to do.

As for labradoodles and the like, aren't Poodles hypoallergenic in the first place (from what I've heard)? So what's the point of crossing them...

[Suz23]

As for labradoodles and the like, aren't Poodles hypoallergenic in the first place (from what I've heard)?

Yep - poodles are indeed hypoallergenic - and 100% shed free - unlike labradoodles, depending on the breeding and type you have a fairly large chance of obtaining a labradoodle that sheds like a lab............

[ChillisMom]

Yep - poodles are indeed hypoallergenic - and 100% shed free - unlike labradoodles, depending on the breeding and type you have a fairly large chance of obtaining a labradoodle that sheds like a lab............

Thanks! My guess with these people breeding labradoodles and such would be that they are trying to gain some sort of fame or recognization for creating this "great new breed of dog".

[buggis]

Why are you all so against "designer dogs"? My Bear is a "designer dog" who is a cross between a Yorkie and a Pekingese. I didn't choose him because he had a designer label on his butt. I could care less about that! And, I am very offended that some people say that those who purchase "designer dogs" give them to shelters once the novelty wears off. That is not fair! I chose Bear because his size and temperment make him the perfect addition to our family. He is small enough to go anywhere with me , from our small family car to my kayak. He is big enough to do any activity that other dogs do. Plus, I was able to litterbox train him. And, I have seen prices on purebred Yorkies that were much higher than what we paid for Bear. Finally, I am very sensitive to the needs of animals in shelters. We have three cats, all of which came from shelters. I did look for a dog in a shelter. But, because this was my first dog and I have a young child at home, I did not feel comfortable adopting a dog from a shelter. I didn't want to risk bringing an aggressive dog into our home. Now that I know much more about dogs, my next dog may very well come from a shelter. So, please stop making assumptions about people who have adopted a so called "designer dog."

[Suz23]

Buggis - I have nothing againt the dogs - they didnt ask to be born, my problems are the people who breed these dogs to make a quick buck and give them no health tests YES there are some reputable people out there but they are outnumbered by the bad ones. It happens in pedigrees too dont get me wrong. But there is nothing designer about a dog who is crippled because of bad hips due to bad breeding an no health checks - no owner deserves to be landed with that.

I wasnt making assumptions about people who buy them so dont suggest I was - I actually understand why people get them - however I cannot agree with people breeding these dogs the way they do - and I dont see why anyone would get upset with me feeling that way.

[buggis]

Suz23, My post was not directed at you specifically. There were some posters who made comments about the intelligence of people who buy "designer dogs". One individual actually referred to us as "suckers who like to throw their money away." Also, I didn't mean that anybody had anything "against the dogs" themselves.

Not every "designer dog" comes from a horrible breeder and will suffer genetic defects and other health problems. There are many horrible purebred breeders out there, too. Consider the situations of thousands of rottweilers, pitbulls, dalmations, and other dogs that suffer extreme behavior and health issues due to poor breeding practices. I would never assume that an individual who purchases a Pitbull supports illegal dogfighting. So, please don't assume that an individual who purchases a Puggle or a Labradoodle supports puppy mills.

[ChillisMom]

Why are you all so against "designer dogs"? My Bear is a "designer dog" who is a cross between a Yorkie and a Pekingese. I didn't choose him because he had a designer label on his butt. I could care less about that! And, I am very offended that some people say that those who purchase "designer dogs" give them to shelters once the novelty wears off. That is not fair! I chose Bear because his size and temperment make him the perfect addition to our family. He is small enough to go anywhere with me , from our small family car to my kayak. He is big enough to do any activity that other dogs do. Plus, I was able to litterbox train him. And, I have seen prices on purebred Yorkies that were much higher than what we paid for Bear. Finally, I am very sensitive to the needs of animals in shelters. We have three cats, all of which came from shelters. I did look for a dog in a shelter. But, because this was my first dog and I have a young child at home, I did not feel comfortable adopting a dog from a shelter. I didn't want to risk bringing an aggressive dog into our home. Now that I know much more about dogs, my next dog may very well come from a shelter. So, please stop making assumptions about people who have adopted a so called "designer dog."

I'm very sorry you feel that way. But instead of supporting a BYB why didn't you just buy a purebred from a RESPONSIBLE breeder. Honestly no responsible breeder would breed to dogs of a different breed.... I am in no way attacking the poor dogs but the people who choose to breed for money and not the betterment of the breed!

[buggis]

I just don't understand the beef! Purebred dogs all came from breeding dogs to achieve specific characteristics. So what is the problem with breeding two different purebreds together? From what I have read, hybrids (or what some refer to as "designer dogs") are a sturdier dog and live longer lives. Maybe I am not understanding something here, but I just don't get what all of the controversy is about. Would someone please explain why it is unhealthy for two different breeds to produce offspring?

[ruffkutz]

Nov. 14, 2005 — The "puggle," a cross between a beagle and a pug, has become so trendy

"It's like mixing a Versace bag and a Coach bag together — what do you get? You get the best of both without adding any of the problems."



The problem with mixing breeds you don't know what you will get esp. with pugs. Look at the poor old KC Bulldog - riddled with health problems, granted not all, because they took the Old Tyme Bulldog, of which I am a very proud owner of, and crossed it with a pug and then inbred and inbred and produced a very unhealthy dog. Who says the same won't happen with this dog in time.

I just think it is a very slippery slope. Any good breeder will not cross blood lines etc and the cost of these dogs is just unbelievable.

[buggis]

I am certainly not advocating inbreeding. Of course that is a horrible practice that creates all kinds of health and behavior issues. I just don't see a problem with breeding to create a first generation hybrid. For example, Bear's mother was a purebred Pekingese. His father was a purebred Yorkie. As a result, Bear is small like a Yorkie (not the crazy, unhealthy teacup size), but is heartier and not nearly as fragile. Had I found a dog like him in a shelter, I certainly would have adopted from a shelter. But, all that I found were large dogs, many of which were pitbulls and rottweilers. (I have absolutely nothing against those dogs and think they are quite magnificent, but they are probably not the best choice for a first-time dog owner.) There was one small dog that I considered, but he peed everywhere! Sure, Bear was expensive. But, so are purebreds.

[ChillisMom]

Because there is no point for them. (That's nothing against mixed breeds.)

[buggis]

Chillis Mom,

Your reply does not answer my question. "What is unhealthy about breeding two purebreds to create a hyrid?" :confused:

And, I ask you this...why do you have a Boxer (which was bred for war), a Pitbull (which was bred for blood games), and an Akita (which was bred for hunting large game)? With the exception of perhaps the hunting, you don't participate in the activities that your dogs were originally bred for. Most dog owners don't and most of these dogs are not used for their original, intended purpose. So, following your line of reasoning, "there is no point for them".

Of course that is not true. These dogs are wonderful animals that make great pets. They are strong, beautiful, intelligent, have unique temperments, and are admired by many. You probably selected your purebreds for those reasons. Well, people that want hybrids also have their reasons. Therefore, there is indeed "a point for them".

[ruffkutz]

And also - Every dog around now was cross bred at some point to make them into the 'pedigrees' they are now. e.g. A bullmastiff was cross bred with an Old Tyme Bulldog to make a Boxer!

[ChillisMom]

Chillis Mom,

Your reply does not answer my question. "What is unhealthy about breeding two purebreds to create a hyrid?" :confused:

And, I ask you this...why do you have a Boxer (which was bred for war), a Pitbull (which was bred for blood games), and an Akita (which was bred for hunting large game)? With the exception of perhaps the hunting, you don't participate in the activities that your dogs were originally bred for. Most dog owners don't and most of these dogs are not used for their original, intended purpose. So, following your line of reasoning, "there is no point for them".

Of course that is not true. These dogs are wonderful animals that make great pets. They are strong, beautiful, intelligent, have unique temperments, and are admired by many. You probably selected your purebreds for those reasons. Well, people that want hybrids also have their reasons. Therefore, there is indeed "a point for them".


To show them..... with the exception of the Pit who I found early Jan with her brother.

And what is unhealthy? I guess we don't know , yet.

[skippygurl00]

whas wrong with getting two different breeds and then letting them breed is that there is no health testing and it is done because its trendy at the moment.years back if someone said here is a mongrel,i call it a puggle,you can have it for $1000,you would have laughed in there face and told them to bugger off.
ok mistakes happen and cross breeds are born,but to do it intentionally for profit is disgusting,and also to prey on people that dont know any better.
if you want a non shedding dog,whats wrong with a poodle??
look up puppy mills on google and tell me this is not wrong

[lovethatdogg]

I think it is asd that people with breed any two dogs and get away with colling it a pure breed. They are probly wonderful dogs....but there are mutts. Just because they are cute, does not mean that they are pure breads. If i mixed a blooh hound and a weimaranier, could i call it pure breed.
http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=7584031
Take a look at the 3rd picture! so silly looking.

I do not really like puppy mills eather. I did not now, but my dog was breed at a puppy mill, and came with many deaseses. There are all sorts of problems and inhumane living enviorments.

[LoveMyLabs]

Designer dogs are mixed breeds...mutts...pound puppies if you will.
Mix a Lab and a Poodle and what do you get...a mutt that some people will want to call a Labradoodle, say it can be registered *with a hybrid association but not a true kennel club* and sell it for hundreds of dollars as a "new breed". Mix a Maltese and a poodle and you get a mutt that someone wants to call a Maltipoo and sell for hundreds of dollars. Mix a shitzu and a poodle and you get a s**tpoo (LOL - sorry, had to do it) that, again, someone wants to sell as a new breed when it's just a glorified mutt.

There is no good or acceptable reason to mix 2 purebred registered dogs and create something of your own making. Why compromise all the hard work that has been put into those 2 breeds trying to make them stronger and healthier with less hereditary problems just so you can lie to people and make a quick buck? Hybrid vigor is a myth. You still get hereditary problems...x2...because you've got 2 breeds with (most likely) different sets of problems *regardless of testing and health certs - you can't guarantee a dog won't get a breed specific disease even with health certs*.

So, what's the point? There isn't one. The mixes and mutts are cute, but they aren't a breed. If you're going to say "what about mixing for low/non shed"...there are purebreds that are low/no shed. Hypo allergenic?? Unless you have all dogs and pups scientifically tested (saliva, dander, hair, mucous, etc) you will never really know if a dog is hypoallergenic or not. Are you willing to spend thousands of dollars on those kinds of tests and then be told "sorry none of your pups fit that criteria"...then you just have mutts with no purpose other than to be cute housepets.


Sorry to step on any toes. But I see no real reason to mix purebreds and have these BS designer breeds. It gives REAL purebreds a bad name.

[skippygurl00]

Designer dogs are mixed breeds...mutts...pound puppies if you will.
Mix a Lab and a Poodle and what do you get...a mutt that some people will want to call a Labradoodle, say it can be registered *with a hybrid association but not a true kennel club* and sell it for hundreds of dollars as a "new breed". Mix a Maltese and a poodle and you get a mutt that someone wants to call a Maltipoo and sell for hundreds of dollars. Mix a shitzu and a poodle and you get a s**tpoo (LOL - sorry, had to do it) that, again, someone wants to sell as a new breed when it's just a glorified mutt.

There is no good or acceptable reason to mix 2 purebred registered dogs and create something of your own making. Why compromise all the hard work that has been put into those 2 breeds trying to make them stronger and healthier with less hereditary problems just so you can lie to people and make a quick buck? Hybrid vigor is a myth. You still get hereditary problems...x2...because you've got 2 breeds with (most likely) different sets of problems *regardless of testing and health certs - you can't guarantee a dog won't get a breed specific disease even with health certs*.

So, what's the point? There isn't one. The mixes and mutts are cute, but they aren't a breed. If you're going to say "what about mixing for low/non shed"...there are purebreds that are low/no shed. Hypo allergenic?? Unless you have all dogs and pups scientifically tested (saliva, dander, hair, mucous, etc) you will never really know if a dog is hypoallergenic or not. Are you willing to spend thousands of dollars on those kinds of tests and then be told "sorry none of your pups fit that criteria"...then you just have mutts with no purpose other than to be cute housepets.


Sorry to step on any toes. But I see no real reason to mix purebreds and have these BS designer breeds. It gives REAL purebreds a bad name.

well said!:)

[LoveMyLabs]

LOL Thanks! I've had enough with the whole "designer dog" trend. It irks me that people will spend hundreds or thousands on a mutt when they could either 1. get the same thing at a shelter or 2. get a purebred and actually get what they are paying for.

[buggis]

My hybrid, mix, cross, mutt, mongrel, designer dog, (or whatever you want to call him) and I started a new training class this week. There was only one purebred in the class. The other four dogs were hybrids as well. So, sorry to burst your pure bred bubbles, but it seems to me there are quite a few people who don't think the same way you do, and "find a point" in these dogs. :eek:

[LabMomHouston]

I just think its a bad decision on the part of the breeder to do so. I agree with the genetic issue and I think any reputable breeder that has worked hard to further the breed would not allow their stud or bitch to be used for hybrids. This sounds to me alot like backyard breeding. What happens to the next generation? They are not always going to be "hybrids".

[lovethatdogg]

LOL Thanks! I've had enough with the whole "designer dog" trend. It irks me that people will spend hundreds or thousands on a mutt when they could either 1. get the same thing at a shelter or 2. get a purebred and actually get what they are paying for. ya

I just think it is kindda unfair to the mixed breeds, cold and abanded. The ones no one wants because they are not purebreed. The pomous people want the purebreed spoiled dogs...witch is fine...but there ignornace towards mutts, is awful. You can save a life of a mixed...wonderful dog, rather them spend 1000 dollers on a mixed breed labled as a purebreed. Shows how materialistic people can be. Buy a mixed mutt called a purebreed, and think they are doing better. Sad that all people want is the best(in there minds) or the highest...the most they can get, instead of a wonderful dog that needs a loving home.

[LoveMyLabs]

My hybrid, mix, cross, mutt, mongrel, designer dog, (or whatever you want to call him) and I started a new training class this week. There was only one purebred in the class. The other four dogs were hybrids as well. So, sorry to burst your pure bred bubbles, but it seems to me there are quite a few people who don't think the same way you do, and "find a point" in these dogs. :eek:

So you had your dog and 5 other mutts in an obedience class. That's fine and dandy. Do the other four mutts' owners say they are purebred dogs even though they come from 2 different breeds of parents?
I don't have a problem with mixed breed dogs. I have a problem with people that intentionally breed mixes, sell them for big $$$, claim they are a new breed and give them cutsie names. Just admit they are mixes from 2 purebred parents that hooked up on accident, cut your losses and, if you insist on selling them, it should only be for $50.
Better yet...instead of buying a mixed breed for a purebred price why not go to a shelter?

So, before you start gettin all feisty...understand that my grudge isn't against the dogs it's against the naive and stupid people that are keeping this "desinger" trend going and contributing to overpopulation and more homeless animals.

[LabMomHouston]

Hopefully these dogs in the class were dogs people have adopted from shelters and not the designer breeds that people are purchasing because it is trendy. If so, it says alot about people are willing to provide homes for these animals. I for one do not want the probability of getting a dog that may have health or mental issues because there was no thought in the breeding of the dog. That is why I am inside the purebred bubble. My dogs were purchased solely for companionship...all on limited registration and both will be altered to avoid the potential complications that puppies grow up with that have been bred irresponsibly. But kudos to those families willing to take on that responsponsibilty and shame on those purchasing & breeding designer breeds.

[OhSoFlawed]

I just feel sorry for the dogs when they're dumped in a shelter because "they went out of fashion"

[LabMomHouston]

Yeah its a shame. Makes me really sad. I went to the pet store this past weekend because they were having an adopt a pet thing. I missed them one night got there too late and got there too early the next day. I wanted to see the dogs. I love to see them.

[OhSoFlawed]

I know. I can't go to those things because I want to take them all home.

I volunteer at a local animal rescue centre - some of the animal's stories are just heartbraking

[LabMomHouston]

Yeah I would be in tears the whole time. I couldnt do that. I donate money and supplies but I could never volunteer there. I cry just watching the rescue shows.

[OhSoFlawed]

Yeah I would be in tears the whole time. I couldnt do that. I donate money and supplies but I could never volunteer there. I cry just watching the rescue shows.

At least you are one of the few who does something, so don't be sad - you are helping them

[LabMomHouston]

Yeah.... I love dogs. I always have. I can't think of a time in my life when I didn't have one. Now I have two! They are my buds. And I love Labs especially. So if yours ever needs a home...:) and you want to send him way over to Texas...:) I volunteer to take him!

[OhSoFlawed]

Thanks for the offer but I'm not selling him... unless he rips up another carpet - or so my dad has indicated :D

[LabMomHouston]

Hahaha...yeah I figured probably not. Sounds like he's a good dog other than the occasional chewing up things. I am sure your family loves him even tho he has an occasional mishap. :)

[lovethatdogg]

heres some info on the puggle! there is also a puggit...? And a puggat!

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/puggat.htm

tttp://www.dogbreedinfo.com/p/puggit.htm

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/puggle.htm

THere are actually alot of other pug mixes!
A Pugese,a Pugapoo, a pugairn, a Pug-zu, and a pug-a-mo.

[buggis]

So you had your dog and 5 other mutts in an obedience class. That's fine and dandy. Do the other four mutts' owners say they are purebred dogs even though they come from 2 different breeds of parents?
I don't have a problem with mixed breed dogs. I have a problem with people that intentionally breed mixes, sell them for big $$$, claim they are a new breed and give them cutsie names. Just admit they are mixes from 2 purebred parents that hooked up on accident, cut your losses and, if you insist on selling them, it should only be for $50.
Better yet...instead of buying a mixed breed for a purebred price why not go to a shelter?

So, before you start gettin all feisty...understand that my grudge isn't against the dogs it's against the naive and stupid people that are keeping this "desinger" trend going and contributing to overpopulation and more homeless animals.

To answer your question, no one in the class called their dog a "purebred". We all just introduced ourselves and our dogs and moved on. And, believe it our not, nobody cared about whose dog made the best fashion accessory. We just had a good time together.

Frankly, I am really tired of hearing how people who spent the money for a hybrid should have adopted from a shelter. And somehow, it is perfectly acceptable for someone to pass over a shelter dog and spend money on a purebred? That is a double standard if I ever heard one! But, I know...I know. Purebred owners' motives are "pure" and for the betterment of the breed. But, my motives are selfish and materialistic. Really, get over yourselves!

Apparently, I am foolish (because I paid too much money for a mutt) and uncaring (because I should have adopted from a shelter.) First of all, I don't consider it foolish to spend money on an animal that will be sharing my home with me and my family for the next 15 years or so. Furthermore, as I stated in a previous post, the first place I went when I was looking to adopt a dog was a local shelter. In fact, I have three cats at home that I adopted from an animal shelter. And, I can guarantee that none of my animals will end up in a shelter. They have a home for life!

[LoveMyLabs]

Why would you pay so much for a mutt that is labeled as a "breed" when it isn't one? Did you realize that you were only getting a mixed breed or did you actually think you had a real purebred? If you knew what you were really getting and still decided to spend that much money (however much it was), good for you. It must be nice to have money to blow on an animal that is fine for a pet, but should never have been bred/can't be bred again (with a good conscience) and cost the price of a purebred without papers. I wish I had that kind of money. Why did you choose the dog you did and why not get the same thing from a shelter for alot less? Feel free not to answer if you choose.
I don't think I'm on a "purebred pedestal". Purebreds used to be mixed breeds themselves. However, they were many, many years in the making and were bred for specific purposes. They also fit certain standards that a mixed breed (calling itself purebred) can never fit with the first couple dozen litters. It takes more than one litter of mixes to even think about having conformation standards or having any other purposes to them.

If you don't like purebred dogs then that is fine. I do, and I like mutts. I just don't see the point in frivolously mixing 2 breeds for no purpose/conformation/health, calling it a "new" breed and slapping a cutsie name on it. Just call it a mutt and be done.

[LabMomHouston]

I like the last part of that statement. Lovethatdogg posted a link on another thread that make really good sense. It basically said people considering hybrids need to be aware that these dogs are not necessary 50% of one and 50% of the other...There can be generations of cross breeding. Also temprements from both have to be considered and you can get any combination of the 2. I just think anytime you get a dog that is mixed whether on purpose or not...there is just too much of a question about what kind of temperament and genetic issue you are going to get. That is why I do not opt to bring them into my home. I am not doing anything to better a breed as I do not intend to breed. That should be left up to those who have researched their lines and have experience with breeding.

[LoveMyLabs]

I am doing something to better the breed. Hips/eyes checked and all Good/Excellent as well as SH, MH, AFC/FC (basically hunting and field champs). This first litter came out small, with c-section difficulty on the last one that didn't make it (first 2 were born naturally), but they are exactly between mom and dad - which is to say that they can either compete in shows or hunting trials. You want a dog that can do both, cause they are truly versatile and a good testament to the breed.
I'm not saying mine are perfect, especially with some training still to be desired, but with more training (Rebel being the one I'm talking about) can be exceptional. That's why I am glad he's going to a home with a guy that has bred and trained Labs before, and was very good at it. :)

Either way, I have no problems with mixes, just the people that mix on purpose, for profit and that lie to others saying they are purebred with such-and-such temperament and build and health, etc.

[buggis]

Why would you pay so much for a mutt that is labeled as a "breed" when it isn't one? Did you realize that you were only getting a mixed breed or did you actually think you had a real purebred? If you knew what you were really getting and still decided to spend that much money (however much it was), good for you. It must be nice to have money to blow on an animal that is fine for a pet, but should never have been bred/can't be bred again (with a good conscience) and cost the price of a purebred without papers. I wish I had that kind of money. Why did you choose the dog you did and why not get the same thing from a shelter for alot less? Feel free not to answer if you choose.
I don't think I'm on a "purebred pedestal". Purebreds used to be mixed breeds themselves. However, they were many, many years in the making and were bred for specific purposes. They also fit certain standards that a mixed breed (calling itself purebred) can never fit with the first couple dozen litters. It takes more than one litter of mixes to even think about having conformation standards or having any other purposes to them.

If you don't like purebred dogs then that is fine. I do, and I like mutts. I just don't see the point in frivolously mixing 2 breeds for no purpose/conformation/health, calling it a "new" breed and slapping a cutsie name on it. Just call it a mutt and be done.

I never said that I don't like purebred dogs. I love all dogs, any breed, size, and gender. And, I don't think that my dog is superior because someone called him a "Yorkinese". In fact, when I decided to buy my dog, I was told that he was not a purebred, and was educated about the difference. It did not matter to me because I was only looking for a family pet and companion. I knew that he would be a small dog (which was what I wanted), and I fell in love with him the moment I saw his face. If I receive a thrashing for that, oh well. Most dog owners that I know would say the same about their own dog. And, as I said, I did look in the dog shelters in our area. All I found were large, powerful dogs that I did not find appropriate for a first-time dog owner with a small child.

It sounds like you may be a breeder, or at least show your animals. I certainly respect that. You sound well educated about dog breeding. The thing that bothers me is when others make general, nasty comments about people who purchased a hybrid dog. I cannot help but take it personally. Certainly there are people who purchase a particular type of dog because it is trendy. And, unfortunately, some of those people abandon the animal when the newness wears off. (Consider what happened when the movie 101 Dalmations came out.) But, I assure you, I am not one of those people and resent being grouped with them. In fact, I probably spend more quality time with my dog than most people. My Bear and I go for two walks a day. We are in two dog training classes. And, we participate in a small dog play group every week. Perhaps you don't agree with my initial decision to purchase a hybrid. That is fine. But, please don't pin me as being an irresponsible, naive, dog owner.

[ChillisMom]

My hybrid, mix, cross, mutt, mongrel, designer dog, (or whatever you want to call him) and I started a new training class this week. There was only one purebred in the class. The other four dogs were hybrids as well. So, sorry to burst your pure bred bubbles, but it seems to me there are quite a few people who don't think the same way you do, and "find a point" in these dogs. :eek:
Frankly, I am really tired of hearing how people who spent the money for a hybrid should have adopted from a shelter. And somehow, it is perfectly acceptable for someone to pass over a shelter dog and spend money on a purebred? That is a double standard if I ever heard one! But, I know...I know. Purebred owners' motives are "pure" and for the betterment of the breed. But, my motives are selfish and materialistic. Really, get over yourselves!

Well it's a good thing there are people like us, or the world would be full of unhealthy dogs with no use. If it wasn't for snobby purebred snobs like us you wouldn't have your dog......

[LoveMyLabs]

Game point and match! Well said chillismom! :)

All these hybrids, mutts, mixes, desginer dogs with cutsie "breed" names are the product of two PUREBRED dogs being put together. No purebreds, no designers....simple as that. However, if no purebreds meant having no designer dogs, which would be no dogs at all, that would be better than having all of these designer mutts wandering around taking false credit for being a purebred. I love dogs, but I'd rather have a dogless world than a world full of unhealthy, mismatched, untested, unshowable, off temper dogs. At least with purebreds we know exactly what we are getting every time...no if, ands or butts about it.

[skippygurl00]

thank god there are some people on here that have brains.Im sick of hearing about INTENTIONAL mix breeding.I have been looking for a poodle on the internet and the amount of shnoodles, groodles ,papoodles is disgusting.dogs are not fashion trends.you want fashion trend get yourself a gucci handbag.
pet shops are the worst offenders with these mongrels.there is no way I would touch a pet shop dog,pure or not.am not going to support a puppy farmer
want a shnoodle?im sure there is a lovely one in the local animal shelter that is desperate for a home and wont cost you the earth

[lovethatdogg]

This is a very usful site to help people understand!

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/designerdogs.htm

[LoveMyLabs]

dogbreedinfo doesn't exactly help. Most of the time they even say a "designer dog" or "mutt" is a breed. The best places to go to find purebred dogs is AKC.org or UKCdogs.com
There you will see a list of all purebred registered dogs. If you want to see alot *and I do mean ALOT* of mixes and mutts that are being called cutsie designer names go to the american canine hybrid association website. I think it's acha.com
They give all byb's the benefit and give any dog of any back ground papers.

[lovethatdogg]

I know... but it gives a idea about what this is! ya now... i donnot!
jk

[buggis]

LovemyLabs and ChilisMom,

First off, neither of you had anything to do with my dog coming into this world. So, again, step off of your high horse.

Second, I do not think that all owners or breeders of purebreds are snobs. Unlike your negative, general statements about people who own "designer dogs", my comments about were only directed at certain individuals who have posted on this forum, yourselves included.

Third, you seem very certain that all breeders of these dogs are unethical. Fine. Then attack the breeders -- not the people who purchase these dogs as pets. I know...In your eyes, I support the "unethical breeding" of these dogs by feeding the demand. I suppose that is true to some extent. But, consider this. If you shop at the local mall, you probably wear clothing that was made in countries that utilize child labor. So, according to your reasoning, you support child labor. If you own a foreign vehicle, you are taking jobs away from fellow Americans. Then, you are unpatriotic. And, unless you are a vegetarian, you support the cruel acts against animals that take place in the slaughter houses across this country. There are hundreds of scenarios that you could equate with this. Point is, things are not as black and white as you would like them to be. If you want to speak out against the unethical treatment of animals, that is great. But, don't slam an entire group of people with assumptions you have made about them. You just don't know...

[ChillisMom]

Third, you seem very certain that all breeders of these dogs are unethical. Fine. Then attack the breeders -- not the people who purchase these dogs as pets. I know...In your eyes, I support the "unethical breeding" of these dogs by feeding the demand. I suppose that is true to some extent.



Wow, ignorance really must be bliss.....
Why don't you go volunteer at an animal shelter..... You obviously haven't seen how many of these "designer dogs" are being put to sleep everyday. Maybe, just maybe you might understand what we are trying to say if you get to witness one of these dogs being euthanized....


That is two days worth.

[skippygurl00]

http://www.stoppuppymills.org/inside_a_puppy_mill.html
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/06/puppy_emills.html
http://puppymillsbite.com/DesignerDogs.html

if you really love dogs you wouldnt be supporting designer dogs.it just shows you are ignorant.dont buy from petshops and BYB.
its not only the breeder to blame but the buyer.if there were no buyers there are no designer puppies.cute puppy today,heartbreak and thousands of dollars of vet bills later.

[buggis]

Wow, ignorance really must be bliss.....
Why don't you go volunteer at an animal shelter..... You obviously haven't seen how many of these "designer dogs" are being put to sleep everyday. Maybe, just maybe you might understand what we are trying to say if you get to witness one of these dogs being euthanized....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/Janene/euthed.jpg
That is two days worth.

"Designer Dogs" are not the only dogs that are abandoned, euthanized, or come from puppy mills. Unfortunately, plenty of purebred dogs suffer this same fate. My point in participating in this forum is to help you understand that not all owners of hybrid dogs are horrible people. Obviously, there is no point in trying.

[LabMomHouston]

I don't think breeders or owners of such dogs are horrible people...but just do not understand the consequences of irresponsible breeding.

That also applies to those that allow dogs to breed randomly and uncontrolled. That's why we have the problems we do with mixed breeds that overwhelm shelters and animal control facilities.

People who breed designer dogs or hybrids (which are bred thru generations) either do not understand or do no care that they are playing with fire by mixing the genetic defects and temperatments of two different dogs. Then owners like yourself are forced to deal with those later down the road and the poor pooches are forced to live with those issues.

That is not going to apply to all owners or all dogs. You may never have any health issues with your dog and that's great. But I am sure there are many who do. That's what happens when people do not certify their dogs for health problems prior to breeding.

I think that's the point we should be making.

[buggis]

I don't think breeders or owners of such dogs are horrible people...but just do not understand the consequences of irresponsible breeding.

That also applies to those that allow dogs to breed randomly and uncontrolled. That's why we have the problems we do with mixed breeds that overwhelm shelters and animal control facilities.

People who breed designer dogs or hybrids (which are bred thru generations) either do not understand or do no care that they are playing with fire by mixing the genetic defects and temperatments of two different dogs. Then owners like yourself are forced to deal with those later down the road and the poor pooches are forced to live with those issues.

That is not going to apply to all owners or all dogs. You may never have any health issues with your dog and that's great. But I am sure there are many who do. That's what happens when people do not certify their dogs for health problems prior to breeding.

I think that's the point we should be making.

Point well taken. Thank you for explaining yourself so clearly. I don't think that many people who purchase a dog are well-educated on breeding practices. As a first time dog owner, I know that I was not. I was just looking for a family pet and companion.

I must say that I learned a lot from all of your posts. My only problem is with those who started pinning all hybrid owners as the "bad guys." For those posters, perhaps you should focus your energy on educating dog owners instead of playing the blame game. The moment you start pointing fingers and calling names, people are put off. When you open your mind, you invite people to listen.

[LoveMyLabs]

I don't care what you own. The problem is the breeders that are doint it and the people that buy them because they don't know any better (or because they don't care). If you knew what you were buying when you bought your dog and still bought the dog then maybe you don't really care about proper breeding/health practices/or that these puppies are mixes being sold for way to much money when they aren't purebred and can't get papers.
If you didn't know anything about the dog or breeder except that you wanted a puppy and it was cute...or that you really thought it was a new "breed" and just hadn't done any research...then it is 95% the breeders fault for not being honest and 5% your fault because you were naive.

There are always situations that can be explained away with a good excuse or that someone didn't understand or know better.
If you were in the second group, now you know better.
If you just had a good excuse, that's no excuse at all.
If you didn't care....then shame on you for supporting a puppymill/byb

[Weesha1717]

Well, when I got my baby Spunky (Chihuahua/Toy fox mix) we saw him jumping up and down wagging his tail at us! We fell in love at first sight! I have no idea if they were purposely mixed, and I don't care I love him to death! There is no label on him he’s my little baby! That’s all. We got my other Boston/Toy fox mix, from a add in the news paper. I decided to go look at him, he was PERFECT. Yeah, I got him from a breeder, but not a breeder of that litter, she just happened to have puppies! Most likely a mistake! lol. He is a wonderful breed! Who gives a crap about "designer dogs?" I think it takes more time to think up complaints on how to dis a dog owner on that crap. People should be more focused on if humane societies are sending animals to the right homes! I am a proud believer in shelter pets! I own a rescued Siamese cat, he’s my fat baby! Perfect cat, loves the dogs, loves to cuddle, and is very vocal, I would never purchase a cat, unless it was from a shelter. I donate to shelters all the time; I help any animal in need no matter its "breed". So if anyone has a complaint about "dog breeds" please let me know, because the time you take writing it up, you could have helped an animal or shelter in someway? You don't find the dog, the perfect dog finds you! I totally believe that! I went to numerous humane societies before getting my dogs, couldn’t find any that I or the dog bonded with perfectly. Why? Well because I live in a condo, I’m only 21. I needed a dog that was small, so it’s fair to the dog in its living environment. Shelters it’s a fact, adopt out most small dogs instantly! Leaving me the choice of a larger dog, I couldn’t do that. So, basically if anyone would like to hit me with a "label" of my perfect babies, go head, waste your time. And, for all the people who just love their pet for who they are regardless of their breed that’s who truly loves their pet. And to the good pet owners who provide their pet with every aspect of a healthy life style YOUR AWSOME!! So simply I just asked does anyone have the same breed of dog as me, NOT to breed if that's a question, to share stories about! Or if anyone else feels the same way, please message me I would love to talk



**THIS WAS ONE OF MY REPLYS TO "THE DESIGNER DOG" QUESTION I GOT HIT WITH, WHEN INTRODUCING MY PETS.** THOUGHT I WOULD ADD,I THOUGHT IT FIT.

[Weesha1717]

Also, just to add this simple thought in......


If the people who say "Don't buy designer dogs" really thought about it, if no one bought the designer dogs/puppies, than they to would become homeless and then a shelter pet. I DO NOT support puppy mills they need to be shut down, but for those crazy people saying OMG don't buy them!!! AHHHAAHHH, they need to think for a minute. Those poor dogs need homes to, and who cares the title, they are a living things!! Think about the poor puppies and dogs in pet shops!! Where will they go if no one buys them??????? They can't just be forgot about, they can't help their placement. Just a thought.

[Suz23]

weeshal - for everyone who buys a puppy farmed dog they sentence the bitch to another litter. If no one bought most of those dogs would end up in rescue centres - if those people didnt make any money they wouldnt do it. they are not in the business for the love of dogs after all.

[Weesha1717]

Yes, but I’m not saying buy from puppy mills, I'm saying honestly my "designer" as you call it, cost $200, WOW that’s a lot, NOT, but my cat at the humane society cost me $135 , not much of a difference. People can sell a dog for whatever price they want, just like this county makes us pay high $3.00 a gallon for gas. Everything is expensive! I saw a great dane in the paper the other day for $1300!! Wow, that’s a lot, but I would pay it if it was the right dog for me. You are basically bashing every dog breeder out there, when it comes to profit & forcing everyone to only buy from shelters. If you want to go that far, they should all be let loose back into their natural habitat in the wild. I don't understand? Plus, what do you mean the breeders don't love the dog? Nonsense, if the breeder didn't like the breed themselves THEY WOULDN"T BREED THEM! I ABSOLUTLY LOVE MY BOSTON MIX! I would love another puppy from that breed? Why do you want people NOT to have them?? Forcing people not to buy them? That’s horrible. That’s like forcing people not to adopt mix children? Imagine if everyone had that attitude----Maybe if we all stop adopting mixed children than no one will want to have them??? Stupid. When you go to the store and spend $200 on designer jeans, an extra $1.25 on name brand items, think about that extra money you spent, you should have put up a fight and tried to get the price lowered? Thats not how life works sorry. You pay for what you want. Also, forcing the mother to have another litter if they are mixed breeds? You have to force the mother to have another litter even if its pure bred? What are you talking about? Please someone help me understand this?

[LoveMyLabs]

It's not about saving money. It's about supporting puppy mills and (as suz said) dooming the bitch to another litter. If noone bought the mix breeds that are being labeled "desinger dogs" (like your Foxton Terrier...no such thing) from the breeders/puppy millers then they'd go to a shelter where someone would still buy them. On the same hand, there would be less breeders of these dogs once they see noone wants to buy them for $xxxx.xx and because noone is naive enough to believe they are real "breeds".

I'd rather get a shelter "designer" than a byb/puppy mill "designer". You hinder the puppy miller, help the bitch that produced the litter(s) and help the pups all at once.

Much better than the attitude you have, I think.

[ChillisMom]

Also, just to add this simple thought in......


If the people who say "Don't buy designer dogs" really thought about it, if no one bought the designer dogs/puppies, than they to would become homeless and then a shelter pet. I DO NOT support puppy mills they need to be shut down, but for those crazy people saying OMG don't buy them!!! AHHHAAHHH, they need to think for a minute. Those poor dogs need homes to, and who cares the title, they are a living things!! Think about the poor puppies and dogs in pet shops!! Where will they go if no one buys them??????? They can't just be forgot about, they can't help their placement. Just a thought.

Actually it's better to sacrifice those puppies than to support irresponsible breeders. I know it's hard when you see a cute puppy to not "save" it from the conditions it's in but is for the good of all dogs.

[Weesha1717]

I just don't get it.

[Weesha1717]

I love my mixed breed dogs.

[Weesha1717]

Actually it's better to sacrifice those puppies than to support irresponsible breeders. I know it's hard when you see a cute puppy to not "save" it from the conditions it's in but is for the good of all dogs.

Thats mean. You sacrifice puppies now? Enough said.

[LabMomHouston]

It's unfortunate that we've resorted to calling people's comments stupid and that they make no sense. I think many of the comments are well said. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, however this should be a place where we all are able to voice our opinions. Whether you agree or disagree.

Buggis - I understand the first time dog ownership issue. I myself was in that same situation at one point. Most people do not understand the ins and outs of dog breeding just in general but are less likely to consider it the very first time they own a dog. Good point. At the age of 19 I bought my first cocker spaniel from a pet store. Never would I have even considered researching the dog, the breeder, or the shop at that point. I think most of us have been in that situation at one point or a another. (Whether we remember it or will admit it) We werent all born knowing all there is to know about dogs. Of course 11 years ago things were a bit different. At 19 who thinks about that stuff...I saw the big brown doey eyes and my heart melted.

I am however glad you are able to give your pet a home and have found the right dog for your family. I will say that I tend to look in different places now and read a bit more and talk to people before I start looking for a pet. That way when I do find one that fits what I am looking for I find the best that's available to me.

[Weesha1717]

Exactly we need to voice our opinions. This is a place for DOGS not certain kinds of dogs! I may have a mixed breed but I love them and wouldn’t change a thing about it. It’s really good that you people support No puppy mills so do I, its good that you don't like inexperienced breeder that’s great. But, to make fun of dogs and ostracize them is horrible. A dog lover is a any-kind of dog lover. Not certain breeds. Go head blame people for buying them saying oh they will go out of style? Well so can purebreds. Also, here’s a question if I decided to mate my Foxton, with another SAME foxton, that’s not cruel would it be? It’s the same breed. I wouldn't be forcing. There are other sides of the story people. Everyone should have an opinion,but it should be a solid one, not one where they half answer the questions. Every dog deserves a change not only a dog that fits approval. Sorry if I am coming off mean, I just hate when people think that making fun of a particular topic is ok, especially to someone who has just registered into this site. This should be a nice ALL DOG network, don't raise questions and not try to see the other side of the story. I support every single animal agency! I donate, adopt, help any animals in need and I am happy I can say that. So please don’t take offence. Don't attack me with IM RIGHT, and I won't to you.

[lovethatdogg]

This is so stupid it makes no sense what you are saying. My designer dog wasn't from a puppy mill. It was from a breeder. You would buy that dog if it came to a shelter tho? That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard! You make no sense! And YES their is a recognized breed as a foxton terrier quit saying no such thing, look it up here’s the address it may be a hybrid but its a recognized breed! Also, I guess mutts shouldn’t be sold either? They are crossed. http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/foxton.htm LOOK IT UP! .There is nothing wrong with purchasing from healthy breeder a mixed dog...period! Forcing the dog, nonsense, there is NO difference if you force a pure bred! Oh, but their recignized..blah blah...SO WHAT, you didn’t make the rules! If I made the rules every dog would be recognized breed, but you would fight that to wouldn't you? Please give me a better sturdier argument.
Wow, hold up. No one on this site or thread is attacking you personally! You pup looks loveley. They key thing here....you even said... is that there are healthey mixes out there. This is simply a discussion on why exactly it is called a pure breed...or what exactley calssafieds is a pure breed.

Even you would agree that there are unheathey mutts out there that have been crossed my humans...and have very bad heath problems. I do not feel anywere in this thread did we attack you personaly. But i feel you are calling us all stupid.Thsi thread definatley makes sense. We are not attacking the dogs, were are simply trying to look out for these brith defects. SO really,if you read it, you would understand we are all great helpful people. You may be a great owner...i am sure you are. Well wonderful, i applaud you, but i think you should work on you manners alittle. sorry.....

[Weesha1717]

Well first off that wasn't me talking about healthy mixes, please go back and take your time reading. And, I think that you may like to start stuff here, I called this situation stupid and the idea, Not people personailly, but I guess you like to make it out to be that way. Im sorry for that to. Read MY last post, please make sure that you can see who writes them before making statements. thanks.

[ChillisMom]

Thats mean. You sacrifice puppies now? Enough said.

Why? Because I care about the good of all dogs and not just one. How is that mean?

Please explain more... (the enough said part). Thanks.

[Weesha1717]

Its never just one. There are a lot of mixed breed dogs out their. All dogs deserve a chance is all I am saying. I am not trying to determine whether my dog is a pure breed, they deff. are not, lol. Or trying to find a place to place them. They are what they are, call them a mutt, I don't care I guess I'm just not use to people labeling things. My dogs are mixed, but, I know their bloodlines. They are excellent dogs, I would recommend their breed to anyone who wants to know a great dog breed. I don't understand your argument, but, I am sure you have great intentions, and all's I really care about is if you are a good dog owner to your dog. I know I am! Sorry if I came off harsh.

[ChillisMom]

Its never just one. There are a lot of mixed breed dogs out their. All dogs deserve a chance is all I am saying. I am not trying to determine whether my dog is a pure breed, they deff. are not, lol. Or trying to find a place to place them. They are what they are, call them a mutt, I don't care I guess I'm just not use to people labeling things. My dogs are mixed, but, I know their bloodlines. They are excellent dogs, I would recommend their breed to anyone who wants to know a great dog breed. I don't understand your argument, but, I am sure you have great intentions, and all's I really care about is if you are a good dog owner to your dog. I know I am! Sorry if I came off harsh.

No you didn't come off as harsh, don't worry about it, lol.

What I was saying was if I came upon a dog in a pet shop, I would never buy it (even if it was in the worst conditions imaginable), because by purchasing that dog you are condemning it's mother and all the other dogs in similar situations to a life of torture being used simply as breeding machines.

http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/home_page_2.htm
This is an informative site on puppy mills and BYBs.

[Weesha1717]

I understand that completly. I bought Spunky at a pet shop when I was 16yrs old. I don't know not to. He had a lot wrong, he had a cold, eye infection, ect.. I spent a fortune on vet bills, it was all worth it to me tho, I love him more than anything. But, I will never buy from a pet shop again because of that experience. Kipper I bought from a breeder he was perfectly healthy! I perfer to adopt, but I said in one of my past posts, I needed a small dog for my condo, and I didn't want to spend alot. They were both reasonably priced. I looked for a dog at numerous shelters, but small dogs usually get adopted fast. Or they don't get along with other dogs and cats, I needed my dog to get along with both. So, I decided on a puppy, so I could get them used to each other, and they are inseperable now :) If I had a large yard and a big house, I would have adopted a larger shelter dog, but I really perfer small dogs.

[buggis]

I understand that completly. I bought Spunky at a pet shop when I was 16yrs old. I don't know not to. He had a lot wrong, he had a cold, eye infection, ect.. I spent a fortune on vet bills, it was all worth it to me tho, I love him more than anything. But, I will never buy from a pet shop again because of that experience. Kipper I bought from a breeder he was perfectly healthy! I perfer to adopt, but I said in one of my past posts, I needed a small dog for my condo, and I didn't want to spend alot. They were both reasonably priced. I looked for a dog at numerous shelters, but small dogs usually get adopted fast. Or they don't get along with other dogs and cats, I needed my dog to get along with both. So, I decided on a puppy, so I could get them used to each other, and they are inseperable now :) If I had a large yard and a big house, I would have adopted a larger shelter dog, but I really perfer small dogs.

Weesha,

My experience was similar to yours. I was a first time dog owner with a small child, and three cats (that I adopted from shelters) in my home. When I went to the shelters looking for a dog, all that I found were large dogs -- many Rots and Pitbulls. While I have nothing against these breeds, I did not find them suitable for my situation. So, I decided to purchase my Bear, who is a Pekingese/Yorkie mix. Like you, I could care less about his breed. He is my best buddy and I wouldn't trade him for anything in the world. I am happy to hear that you find the same joy in your dogs. (They certainly are adorable.)

To all, until I saw this post, I really did not know that there was such controversy over the "designer dog trend." While there certainly are some strong differences of opinion regarding this topic, I do believe that everyone that has posted on this thread loves dogs of all types. We are just looking at this from very different perspectives. If you think about it, people in third world countries would think we are all nuts for placing such great importance on these animals. (For some fantastic insight on this subject, check out Millan's first book. He talks about this subject at length. Very interesting stuff.) At least we all agree on one thing -- our dogs are worth it. Anyhow, I am done posting on this subject.

Weesha, I don't have a Foxton Terrier or a Taco Terrier. Are they mixed with a Boston Terrier? (My daughter's boyfriend has a Boston Terrier puppy named Bo. He is a doll!) Perhaps we can chat on another thread sometime?

[Weesha1717]

I would love that! Kipper is a boston/fox mix, Spunky is a chihuhua/fox mix :) They are adorable!! I just posted a couple new pix up. Start a new thread I would love to chat n e time :)

[LoveMyLabs]

Yo Weesha - I hate to tell you but a hybrid isn't a breed. Just because dogbreedinfo.com says it is doesn't mean it's a registerable, recognized breed by reputable kennel clubs. And if you say that the American Canine Hybrid Association is reputable I think I'll hurl. *JK* I've been to the ACHA site and all they require is that the parents are purebred and they give you a paper certifying that your dog is a "hybrid". Basically you get papers saying your dog is a mix. Foxtons and puggles and scottidoodles are not breeds, they are mixes. That being said, it's not the mix itself that is the problem it's the people that do the mixing and the people that willingly, or naively, buy the mixes. If you mixed a foxton with another foxton you'd still have mix breed puppies. Ya know why? Because 2 breeds making a mix isn't exactly half and half. You don't have standards and you don't have specific temperaments. Therefore you are not a breed. Get AKC or UKC or the Canadian KC to say it's a breed...fine...til then you've still got a cute mix.

My point is that if you intentionally mix 2 purebred dogs you get a mutt...not a new breed. You buy one of the mutt pups you are supporting a puppy mill or byb. If you naively buy one, not knowing any better, the pup has a good home and hopefully you don't do it again. Otherwise mom still makes mixes and breeder still makes money on naive, foolish people that don't know any better or don't care.

[LoveMyLabs]

Case and point - directly from dogbreedinfo.com

Boston Terrier / Toy Fox Terrier Hybrid

The Foxton is not a purebred dog. It is a cross between the Boston Terrier and the Toy Fox Terrier. The best way to determine the temperament of a mixed breed is to look up all breeds in the cross and know you can get any combination of any of the characteristics found in either breed. This hybrid cross is recognized by the American Canine Hybrid Club. ACHAclub website listing of all the "hybrids" they recognize. In case you can't tell, all of these are just mixed breeds. http://www.achclub.com/modules.php?name=Breeders

ACHA is no better than ACA or APRI - all you have to do is send in the sire/dams names, say they are purebred, send a photo of your pup and they send you a paper saying your pup is registered with the association...purebred or not. That's just not right or fair.

[Weesha1717]

Please CHILL. My dog is NOT a purebred. I think I have made that very very clear. I DONT care what he is he’s mine, he’s adorable, and I got him from a responsible breeder that OK. She doesn’t work for a puppy mill, she doesn’t slave them to death, she doesn’t beat them, and she loves them. And, that is why I have a healthy adorable dog! I get more compliments on Kipper and his temperament its crazy! He’s a great looking dog, and if they mix that breed oh well, I see why. He has a perfect personality. And, no one is slaving away in a puppy mill. There is no difference if you go to a purebred breeder. It’s just a mixed pup! And, if people like them and you don't tough! if people pay more for them tough. Not everyone and every breeder of mixed breed dogs are out to kill. And, no one who buys a mixed breed should be punished or attacked. They just need to be educated about pet shops and irresponsible breeders. There are a lot of responsible breeders out there with mixed pups. And, I think they are adorable, who cares if they have papers, my dog is a family dog, sleeps in bed with us, goes on vacation with us, takes hikes with us, you don't need papers for that. I think you are a breeder of a pure breed, and can't stand the competition that you face, that’s not my problem sorry.

[LabMomHouston]

. Also, here’s a question if I decided to mate my Foxton, with another SAME foxton, that’s not cruel would it be? It’s the same breed. I wouldn't be forcing.

This is irresponsible breeding. You cannot truly know the lines these dogs come from without have pedigrees for them and genetic health certification for both parents. A person that has purchased an animal from a breeder who intentionally mixes two sep breeds is not purchasing from a resposible breeder. They are irresponsbile in the fact that they are combining genetic material from two breeds not knowing how those genes will mix. Yes it provides for cute dogs but to me its experimental. Even to consider taking that dog and mixing it with another foxton is extremely experimental. Now youre combing genetic material from four dogs. That's the point I think most of us are trying to make.

It's irresponsible of the breeder first to provide that kind of dog intentionally and second providing to a person who would consider breeding it.

All of my dogs were purchased with a contract with intention of spay or neuter. Also if any of my animals bred accidentally, the puppies could not be registered with the AKC even if bred with another registered Lab. This helps to deter someone from purchasing a dog and then moving into their backyard with another dog of the opposite sex and breeding them for profit. Unfortunately since these dogs cannot be registered to begin with, theres not really any kind of deterant. Sad.

[Weesha1717]

I have perfectly healthy dogs. That is why they do mix them I assume, maybe because their jeans go together so good, if they didn't than I’m sure they wouldn't breed them. Plus, their are a lot of pure bred breeders who have unhealthy pups to. I have never met a dog owner who has a mixed dog that says "my dog is mixed and messed up", they are dogs just like people they all posses their own traits and features. Its not irresponsible breeding only for mixed breeds. It would be irresponsible breeding for basically any breeder. Look at all the dogs in shelters pure bred or mixed, no one should be breeding at all until they are all adopted out. If you were going to make that statement I would say that someone with that argument should call everyone an irresponsible breeder. Also, what about those "irresponsible pure bred breeders" who constantly make their dogs have puppies to sell them and call them "pure bred" with "papers" and say -----we have everything right here papers bloodline...now pay me $1300 cause we can provide you with all of this, I say that’s a scam. it goes either way, I think that we both have strong sides to our arguments. We all have good intentions and I feel that’s all that matters. Thanks!

[LabMomHouston]

Did you check....you can't assume these things. People have proven they don't mix dogs that are only healthy...That's why elbow and hip displaysia are so prevelant.

There are indeed a number of purebred breeders with unhealty puppies. However you are equating purebred with responsible. That is not always the case.

I suggest you do some research on dog breeding and genetic problems that plague dogs. If you research a bit you may understand that mixing different breeds is irresponsible because of the mixing of genetic problems. The purpose of breeding is not to just have oodles of cute puppies but to breed genetically sound dogs of a particular breed to increase the likelihood of healty animals and eliminate genetic problems.

As far as irresponsible breeding until all dogs are adopted...that will never happen. Too many people want to breed dogs either for profit or for the fad of the day. They then place those dogs with irresponsible owners who allow their dogs to multiply. That's where the overwhelming of shelters occurs. Backyard breeding...oops my dog hooked up with yours. That should never happen. To be a responsible owner...the dog should be spayed or neutered unless you intend to breed and have invested in the health certification necessary to insure the dog is sound. That's where the investment of a sound puppy comes in...Not a scam. Just investing in a reputable breeder that has invested time and money in making sure their dogs are not passing on things like hip displaysia. We do have differing opinions. I know I will never convince anyone to consider a different opinion. However, I ask before you start mating dogs...Research.

[LoveMyLabs]

LabMom - It's like talking to a wall. It really is sad. Weesha thinks that just because the pup looks fine and healthy that it is. She thinks that people wouldn't mix breeds if they would end up unhealthy. She is either very young, or very naive. Neither of which is good in this case.
Someone that intentionally mixes 2 sep breeds is NOT a good breeder. They do NOT have "guaranteed healthy" dogs. They are in it for the quick cash that comes from people like you that support byb's.

"He’s a great looking dog, and if they mix that breed oh well, I see why. He has a perfect personality."

If you really think this then you have a long way to go in learning about proper, ethical breeding. Real breeders don't mix for "cute" dogs. You are lucky you got a dog with a good personality. Most mixes end up with temperament issues depending on which breeds are mixed. THey also end up with more health issues because their is no such thing as "hybrid vigor". It has been disproven many times and is another tool used by byb's to get people to buy their mixes labeled as "breeds".

Obviously you will never understand...or don't want to understand.

[Weesha1717]

I don't mate my dogs and I never will. I know a lot about dogs and I do know, that smaller dogs even if mixed arn't prone to hip problems. I also know that if I did research I could find about the same negative information on pure breeds as I can mixed breeds, same goes for pure bred breeders. Its a matter of opinion and choice, not a matter of what is right and wrong. It is wrong for puppymills and pet shops to carry dogs, but I don't feel it is wrong to have mixed breeders, that know a lot about the breed. If someone wants a mixed breed dog, than that is a choice. How is it fair to say buy St. Bernards..they are proven to have hip problems...ect ect?

[Weesha1717]

LabMom - It's like talking to a wall. It really is sad. Weesha thinks that just because the pup looks fine and healthy that it is. She thinks that people wouldn't mix breeds if they would end up unhealthy. She is either very young, or very naive. Neither of which is good in this case.
Someone that intentionally mixes 2 sep breeds is NOT a good breeder. They do NOT have "guaranteed healthy" dogs. They are in it for the quick cash that comes from people like you that support byb's.

"He’s a great looking dog, and if they mix that breed oh well, I see why. He has a perfect personality."

If you really think this then you have a long way to go in learning about proper, ethical breeding. Real breeders don't mix for "cute" dogs. You are lucky you got a dog with a good personality. Most mixes end up with temperament issues depending on which breeds are mixed. THey also end up with more health issues because their is no such thing as "hybrid vigor". It has been disproven many times and is another tool used by byb's to get people to buy their mixes labeled as "breeds".

Obviously you will never understand...or don't want to understand.




Im either really young? It's like talking to a wall...what about you? A pure bred dog can't be PROVEN to be healthy either, come on think think lady. Im so glad that you are such a nice person! "Most mixes end up with temperament issues depending on which breeds are mixed" ANY dog can have that happen! I need better facts instead of your opinions, stop being so harsh about your miss right!

[LoveMyLabs]

A good breeder will have had necessary health checks done on their breed. That is why you make sure health certs are done. For ex: Dalmation breeders should always do BAER testing since dalmations are prone to deafness.
Lab breeders should always do OFA testing (hips) since they are prone to hip dysplasia. If a Lab has Good or Excellent hips it's fine to breed with. Anything less borders on, or is, unethical breeding.

The same goes with any breed, regardless of their hereditary health issues. Good breeders will know what health issues their breeds can have and will do all the necessary tests to make sure they will not be passing on those health issues.
Get it?

[LoveMyLabs]

LOL. If you want proof do some research. It's not hard to find out the information I'm telling you is true.

[LabMomHouston]

Every breed has its own genetic problems. Exactly why mixing that stuff up isnt a good idea.

As mentioned earlier just because one breeds dogs that are consider pure bred does not mean they are a reputable, responsbile breeder. I think I said that earlier.

As far as temperament issues....if you just consider breed alone, certain dogs have certain characteristics. You are more likely to have a busy, intelligent border collie because over generations of breeding this has been shown to be a characteristic of the dog.

Its like a particular trait common in a family....Many member in my family hae dark hair, dark eyes...Yes not everyone will have dark hair, dark eyes...but its a likelihood that any babies born into the family will. Every now and then a uncharacteric feature will show up...example my brother has green eyes.

When you mix characterics of two completely different types of dogs you are unsure of what you are going to get...Things that are not common may show up more prevelant and more often.

No animal can be proven to be healthy. However you are less likely to have issues come up in breeding if you have proven lines of good genetic material.

[LabMomHouston]

My family has good genetic material. :) J/k...

[Weesha1717]

Ok im done talking on this subject, LabMomHoustonare you are not very friendly, coming into my other thread I just started and saying mean uncalled for things. Please think of other people before you try to show your self off. I posted another thread asking if anyone has a mixed breed, to share possitive stories with, and you came in and started a negative argument. Y? Please if you have nothing nice to say don't say it at all. Thanks. Almost everyone on here has given me a lot of information, I will never buy from a pet store, and I will check the breeders I go to carefully! So thank you; For those of you who gave a factual conversation. Thank you.

[LabMomHouston]

I have not come into any thread...Get your facts straight. However this is a forum and anyone can join any thread btw. That's the point of the forum.

[LoveMyLabs]

Exactly - I went to your thread and I wasn't rude btw. Labmom and myself have been the main one's giving you the honest, correct and helpful information. You just choose to ignore it.

We know what we're doing, what we've done and what is supposed to be. All for various reasons. Whether we've researched, bred, shown, hunted with, health tested, etc. We DO know what we are talking about. However, you don't have to believe us...and you obviously choose not to. As far as I'm concerned, this conversation/thread is finished.

[Weesha1717]

Sorry LabMomHouston, I meant LoveMyLabs came in and started bad talking. For no reason, I am really sorry your names are really similar.

[LabMomHouston]

:) No harm no foul!

[LoveMyLabs]

I didn't bad talk anything. I stated facts and have even offered up info about my mix.

See, now you are just trying to start trouble.

This is what I said:

I never had anything against your dogs personally. I even complimented them. The problem is that you think the person you bought them from is not doing anything wrong.

Well, have fun living in your world. We will continue to live in the real world where 2 sep breeds being mixed is considered wrong...no health checks are wrong...unstable temperaments are wrong...hybrid vigor doesn't exist...and pound puppies are being ignored because people like your "breeder" are making naive individuals believe they've got something better than they could get at a pound.

[Weesha1717]

Yeah cause I wanna start trouble, thats why I opend up my own thread to leave this one, and you followed!! Who's starting trouble? LabMomHouston has been giving me good advice. But please LoveMyLabs don't flatter yourself you are no help, calling me young, dising my dogs, calling me naive, how is that helpful? Ok, your right. How could I be so blind. ~~~DIRECT QUOTE... " She is either very young, or very naive. Neither of which is good in this case." Why say that? You don't know me?

[ChillisMom]

I love this thread! LMAO.

[lovethatdogg]

Yeah cause I wanna start trouble, thats why I opend up my own thread to leave this one, and you followed!! Who's starting trouble? LabMomHouston has been giving me good advice. But please LoveMyLabs don't flatter yourself you are no help, calling me young, dising my dogs, calling me naive, how is that helpful? Ok, your right. How could I be so blind. ~~~DIRECT QUOTE... " She is either very young, or very naive. Neither of which is good in this case." Why say that? You don't know me?
Hey, i know you did not come to start trouble...but thiings were alittle heated and it seemed like mabe you did. Just like chuhuahuabreeder. ya know?
i agree, i love this thread!LMAO2

[Nathalie]

First, let me say, that I am fond of ALL dogs, mixed breed, purebred, mutts, whatever.. I love them all. Now, here's my two-cents on the designer dog craze:

If you are going to spend that kind of money on a dog... it should be a PURE breed from a GOOD breeder. The term 'designer dog' is just a gimmic some creative breeders came up with to make you spend lots of money on a mutt. That's what they are - mutts, plain and simple. If you want a mixed breed, please adopt one from a shelter instead of paying $1000 for it!!

One other thing... if you're getting the dog for the sake of it being a 'designer' breed, then you probably shouldn't be getting a dog anyway.

HERE HERE I TOTALLY AGREE WITH WHAT YOU'RE SAYING!!

I've had mutts and purebreeds. If you want a mutt go to a rescue or the Canadian humane society(same as Spca in the usa) but if you want a pure breed for whatever reason then do your homework and get the breed from a reputable breeder.

I have two registered pugs and i just had to put my Shadow(mutt)down in June, she was 16 and half.
Again if you want a mutt, there are so so many looking for homes and it's ridiculous to pay that kind of money.
This is why there is such a problem with puppy mills because theres a market for foolish people.

Sorry but this makes me angry either save a dog(mutt)from a rescue or get a registered breed.

Nat

[Nathalie]

In Canada, the so called "Designer Breeds" are more expensive than some purebred dogs. It is crazy. As long as people seek them out and buy them this nonsense will continue.
They are mutts. They are not recognized breeds by the AKC or the CKC
and they end up in shelters just like any other dog.
I adopted a JackaBea and he is a wonderful pet but he has such short legs that when he lies down his legs and feet are suspended in mid air.
He has a JR head and legs and his torso is a sturdy Beagle.
The genius that decided these two breeds should unite in one dog needs a lobotomy.
Can you imagine these two breeds ever getting together on their own in the wild? I doubt it very much. I hope the female was the Beagle. Cannot imagine the torture if the female was the terrier.
Ridiculous.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s264/nanagoo/flyingjake.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s264/nanagoo/Jake.jpg


His face also looks sheltie...don't you think?

[Nathalie]

actually it is a designer dog and by the way what are goodles???????????????????????

sorry but what do you consider a designer dog??? oh ya two different breeds into 1 is a mutt

[Nathalie]

My hybrid, mix, cross, mutt, mongrel, designer dog, (or whatever you want to call him) and I started a new training class this week. There was only one purebred in the class. The other four dogs were hybrids as well. So, sorry to burst your pure bred bubbles, but it seems to me there are quite a few people who don't think the same way you do, and "find a point" in these dogs. :eek:


Again there are thousands of abandoned mutts every year in North America. And i think most people have mutts from a rescue because they want a companion and they don't want to spend huge amount of money on a pure breed. For those people who spend alot of money on a mutt is foolish.
Obviously, you did not want a pure breed and i can understand that but you spend the same king of money that you would of if you purchased a purebreed. Again you could of found a small dog at a rescue

[Weesha1717]

Haha, I looked back at this thread and laughed. I stoped talking in this for a long time :) I have two mixed breed dogs, I only paid $150 for my one dog, and $250 for my other. Thats nothen. They came all shotted and vet checked and ready :) No puppy farm :) And, I do agree adopt! I have a adopted cat :) But, it isnt fair to say "there are tons of "mutts" abandoned every year. There are "EVERY TYPE" of breed abandoned every year.

[Nathalie]

Haha, I looked back at this thread and laughed. I stoped talking in this for a long time :) I have two mixed breed dogs, I only paid $150 for my one dog, and $250 for my other. Thats nothen. They came all shotted and vet checked and ready :) No puppy farm :) And, I do agree adopt! I have a adopted cat :) But, it isnt fair to say "there are tons of "mutts" abandoned every year. There are "EVERY TYPE" of breed abandoned every year.

Indeed....unfortunately for all animals!

[LoveMyLabs]

It all goes back to the begining. If only good, ethical breeders - intent on bettering a breed - actually bred dogs then there wouldn't be near as much overpopulation of purebreds.
If all mixes, or dogs that aren't going to be bred, were spayed/neutered then we wouldn't be over run by them each year and have so many put to sleep.
Taking this into consideration, do you really think it's wise for people to mix two purebred dogs - intentionally creating a mutt - to sell for an extravagent amount of money saying it's a "designer dog"?
No...it's not what should be done. It's not what needs to be done. People that buy these mixes because they are "designers" should get a serious lesson in real world breeding, ethics and purebreds in general. Obviously they don't understand the dynamics of the purebred dog.
A mix, or designer dog, can NOT be registered with AKC, UKC or any other reputable kennel club. They can NOT be shown in any conformation class because they do NOT have a breed standard because they are NOT a recognized breed. They do NOT have anything called hybrid vigor 1. because a hybrid is a mix of 2 different species, not 2 different breeds and 2. a mix has just as much chance of getting genetic health problems as a purebred (more so since 2 breeds are involved). 3. Unless a dog has been scientifically tested and proven to be hypoallergenic...it's NOT...no matter what the "breeder" says. 4. A "breeder" can not guarantee the size or weight or temperament of ANY of these "designer" mixes. 5. If you buy the dog cause you think it can be registered you will be very sad when you find you can only get them registered with the Canine Hybrid Assoc or American Pet Registry Inc. Those are not "real" purebred papers; simply papers saying your dog had a purebred sire and dam. 6. If you are willing to spend hundreds or thousands on a mixed breed a. why not get a shelter mix or b. get a purebred that is worth it in the long run (not that purebreds are better than mutts, but if you're spending the money...well....).

Last but not least, if you don't care and will spend hundreds or more on a mix then it must feel nice to have that much money to blow on a mix with a cutsie little designer wanna be breed name. That would be like blowing $200 on a off brand t.v./v.c.r. combo that may or may not work when you could buy a brand name, new, combo that you knew would work and that came with instructions.

I'm just sayin'....ya know...don't contribute to the problem. If ya buy from someone that mixes breeds on purpose you are contributing to the problem...same as people that buy from irresponsible, unethical purebred breeders (byb's).

[Weesha1717]

It all goes back to the begining. If only good, ethical breeders - intent on bettering a breed - actually bred dogs then there wouldn't be near as much overpopulation of purebreds.
If all mixes, or dogs that aren't going to be bred, were spayed/neutered then we wouldn't be over run by them each year and have so many put to sleep.
Taking this into consideration, do you really think it's wise for people to mix two purebred dogs - intentionally creating a mutt - to sell for an extravagent amount of money saying it's a "designer dog"?
No...it's not what should be done. It's not what needs to be done. People that buy these mixes because they are "designers" should get a serious lesson in real world breeding, ethics and purebreds in general. Obviously they don't understand the dynamics of the purebred dog.
A mix, or designer dog, can NOT be registered with AKC, UKC or any other reputable kennel club. They can NOT be shown in any conformation class because they do NOT have a breed standard because they are NOT a recognized breed. They do NOT have anything called hybrid vigor 1. because a hybrid is a mix of 2 different species, not 2 different breeds and 2. a mix has just as much chance of getting genetic health problems as a purebred (more so since 2 breeds are involved). 3. Unless a dog has been scientifically tested and proven to be hypoallergenic...it's NOT...no matter what the "breeder" says. 4. A "breeder" can not guarantee the size or weight or temperament of ANY of these "designer" mixes. 5. If you buy the dog cause you think it can be registered you will be very sad when you find you can only get them registered with the Canine Hybrid Assoc or American Pet Registry Inc. Those are not "real" purebred papers; simply papers saying your dog had a purebred sire and dam. 6. If you are willing to spend hundreds or thousands on a mixed breed a. why not get a shelter mix or b. get a purebred that is worth it in the long run (not that purebreds are better than mutts, but if you're spending the money...well....).

Last but not least, if you don't care and will spend hundreds or more on a mix then it must feel nice to have that much money to blow on a mix with a cutsie little designer wanna be breed name. That would be like blowing $200 on a off brand t.v./v.c.r. combo that may or may not work when you could buy a brand name, new, combo that you knew would work and that came with instructions.

I'm just sayin'....ya know...don't contribute to the problem. If ya buy from someone that mixes breeds on purpose you are contributing to the problem...same as people that buy from irresponsible, unethical purebred breeders (byb's).




Haha. UP ABOVE QUOTE~~>"Last but not least, if you don't care and will spend hundreds or more on a mix then it must feel nice to have that much money to blow on a mix with a cutsie little designer wanna be breed name. That would be like blowing $200 on a off brand t.v./v.c.r. combo that may or may not work when you could buy a brand name, new, combo that you knew would work and that came with instructions."


Here we go again. LOL. Oh well I have learned my lession..say nothing. Except I love my dogs to death period. And, how I spend my money is no concern of yours. And, how is everyones halloween shopping going? Spunky's mommy's little space cadet..BUT BUT Kipper is to wide around the shoulder area to get him a costume! Any ideas where I can get one thats a larger size?! We have tried on sooo many but no luck! Thanks.

[LoveMyLabs]

No, not "here we go again" :) At least not with you. We've had our disagreements already and what's said is said.

It's simply a statement of opinion on my part and taken from the facts as I see them. I DO wish I could afford to spend that kind of money for a mixed breed pet (not because it's cutsie designer but to save quite a few from certain death at shelters...or buy a litter of "designers", get them fixed and get them to good homes that don't want a cutsie named doggie but really want a pet for the family and they don't care what it is.

As for the costume comment - They don't make anything for bigger dogs, but you should be able to find some costumes to fit yours. The biggest is what, 21 lbs? Wal Mart has some neat military costumes or a girly pink one (I don't know what it's supposed to be, but!?). Petsmart or Petco should have some good sized costumes as well.

[Weesha1717]

We tried Petsmart and Petco. Nothen. He is just to broad around the shoulder area for the costume to stay strapped. Every where else he is fine.

[LoveMyLabs]

maybe someone could let it out in the shoulders for you?

[poundpuppiesandme]

I am sooooooo sick of listening to you blab on and on about mutts, do you really think we are dumb enough to think we could show or registaer our mixed breeds, I adopted all my dogs from the pound and am completly offended by the fact that you have so much to say about something you do not DO or OWN, or your dogs adpoted? NO you BREED while SHELTER PETS DIE....Yes, Labs to ,are at the pound, several of them, BRED just like yours, would you like to see pictures? So until YOU STOP BREEDING AND LEARN TO ADOPT THEN JUST Be Quite ABOUT MUTTS. You do not have one so be happy and drop the subject. Designer dogs is what YOU calll them, I call them my friends and my family.

[LabMomHouston]

Weesha~ Maybe you could get something with like a cape...superman or something...devil that doesn't fit tight around the body, just ties around the neck. Poor kipper has not halloween costume yet. :(

[kellynharley]

i think that's a good idea from labmom weesha i think he'd look super cute as a devil :D

[LabMomHouston]

With one ear standing up. :)

[Weesha1717]

Hahaha yeah :) Kip and his one ear up one down, he's crazy! I think a devil may suit him, but im looken to see if I can find a Pimp costume :D He's a lady's man, lol.

[LabMomHouston]

:) LOL...that made me really laugh out loud. Well I can't wait to see that.

[ChillisMom]

Hahaha yeah :) Kip and his one ear up one down, he's crazy! I think a devil may suit him, but im looken to see if I can find a Pimp costume :D He's a lady's man, lol.

He would make an awesome pimp! You'll have to post pictures. :D

[Weesha1717]

No luck with the pimp~But hes a Biker dude :)

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h142/weesha1717/Kipper8.jpg



http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h142/weesha1717/Kipper7.jpg


http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h142/weesha1717/Kipper5.jpg

[k9mania]

I am sooooooo sick of listening to you blab on and on about mutts, do you really think we are dumb enough to think we could show or registaer our mixed breeds, I adopted all my dogs from the pound and am completly offended by the fact that you have so much to say about something you do not DO or OWN, or your dogs adpoted? NO you BREED while SHELTER PETS DIE....Yes, Labs to ,are at the pound, several of them, BRED just like yours, would you like to see pictures? So until YOU STOP BREEDING AND LEARN TO ADOPT THEN JUST Be Quite ABOUT MUTTS. You do not have one so be happy and drop the subject. Designer dogs is what YOU calll them, I call them my friends and my family.


I don't think that anyone is directing any comments toward people adopting mixes or purebreds from shelters and rescue associations. It is the people who breed those and add to overpopulation and make it so people don't adopt the already unwanted dogs. You are to be commended and I am sure that LabHouston understands that if you read the post carefully. Again, this is such a touchy topic. Everyone needs to read and reread their posts so it is not directed at a person and tone matters.

[LabMomHouston]

That is an awesome costume!!!!! He looks sexy! :) I am sure all the girls will love him even tho he doesn't have the pimp clothes.

[buggis]

Weesha,

Love the costume! He is adorable! I couldn't dress Bear up though. He would hate me. I try to put a sweater on him in the winter to wear outside because it gets really cold by us. But, it's a losing battle. Oh...I can get the sweater on, but then he just goes and stands in a corner with this completely disgusted look on his face. I wonder what our dogs are thinking when we put clothes on them! :p

[LoveMyLabs]

I am sooooooo sick of listening to you blab on and on about mutts, do you really think we are dumb enough to think we could show or registaer our mixed breeds, I adopted all my dogs from the pound and am completly offended by the fact that you have so much to say about something you do not DO or OWN, or your dogs adpoted? NO you BREED while SHELTER PETS DIE....Yes, Labs to ,are at the pound, several of them, BRED just like yours, would you like to see pictures? So until YOU STOP BREEDING AND LEARN TO ADOPT THEN JUST Be Quite ABOUT MUTTS. You do not have one so be happy and drop the subject. Designer dogs is what YOU calll them, I call them my friends and my family.


You know it would probably help you if you READ and UNDERSTOOD what I posted. Yes, there are people that are "dumb enough" to think they can show and register designer dogs. I have owned mixes and have continued to say I have nothing against the mixes (if you'd read what I actually posted). I'm glad you adopted from the pound, good for you. I wasn't speaking to, or about you, in the first place (again, read the friggin post correctly). I know Labs and other purebreds are at the shelter, just as much as mixes are...again, READ THE POST!!!
Until you actually read and understand what I'm posting I suggest you BE QUITE about all of it.
I do not call them designer dogs...other people do. I'm glad yours are friends and family. However other people do not think the same way. THey believe these mixes from 2 purebreds are "designer dogs", give them cutsie names and sell them for hundreds - or more- dollars to people that don't know better. The one's that do know better still buy them cause they want a new fad (some actually want to help the dogs, give them good homes, etc).

So, READ MY POST and UNDERSTAND IT before you post rude, ignorant and degrading remarks about me. Thank you very much!
:cool:

[LoveMyLabs]

Good. Obviously all you can do is try to degrade people and make them feel bad for having their own opinions...much of which is based upon real world facts. If you'd only read you'd understand. Since you won't do that there is nothing else I can do to get you to truly understand what I'm saying. You only want to hear your own opinions; I hate to tell you but the rest of the world's opinions differ from yours. GET USED TO IT! :cool:

[Weesha1717]

Question~ Whats the difference if someone fixes up a old car (Junk) and tries to sell it for way more than its worth? Or what if I buy a used item~Ebay~ and sell it for 4X the amout. The dollars you can tag on a dog, is no different. If there is gonna be an argument. It should be about the dogs in the shelters. Not the price tag, cost is supply and demand,the world revolves around it. That will never change. Money this country makes a life around. The cost about certian dogs is not a valid argument. But, buying or breeding when shelter pets die is a valid one :) So Dont breed........ Or buy. When shelter pets die. Thanks Alicia.

[LoveMyLabs]

So you are also saying that we should let all of the purebred dogs die out and only have shelter dogs until all shelter dogs are taken care of. Then what? We will not have any purebred hunting, field, pointer, guard, seeing eye, hearing, or police dogs. (Not that a mix can't do it, but they weren't bred to do it so it would be alot harder to get them to.)

It's not just the price tag. It's the fact that purebreds are being mixed for no good reason what-so-ever. The only reason that 99.9% of them are being mixed is for money. The other 1% may actually be tested for hypoallergenic possibilities and such. Breeding purebreds is done for a reason (not money either)...i.e. reducing the risk of hereditary diseases, improving joints/health, improving hunting/field/show/agility, improving upon the breeds conformation, coat and temperament, etc.

I agree people should go to the pound/shelter if they want a dog that will be spayed/neutered, mixed or purebred *without papers*, and in need of a good home. However, there are others that want a purebred dog because it better fits their family or lifestyle *you know what you are getting with a purebred - mixes are a toss up with temperament/size/health*.

There are alot more issues than $$ involved.

[Weesha1717]

No no no. You can't be sure of any dogs temperment pure bred or mix. That is not a fact, that people buy pure breds instead of mixes for temperment. Also, I am all for shelter animals first, how about we reduce the amount of dogs in shelters before we go breeding. Its not like all pure breds will go extinct like you said, concidering there are a TON of pure breds in shelters to. You breed right? Well untill thoes poor animals in shelters are taken care of you are putting more and more dogs out there. And, FACT you never know who will put one of YOUR "pure bred" dogs in a shelter cause they can't care for them anymore or something. So, basically the more you breed ANY dog the more the population increase, and the less shelter animals have at a chance of getting adopted.

[poundpuppiesandme]

you can not get through a brick wall!!!

[Weesha1717]

Ture Ture im done.

[LabMomHouston]

There are breeders that breed specific dogs for temperment. That's not the only reason dogs are bred. However, dogs with a strong instinct to hunt will be a better candidate to breed than one who doesn't, for sporting breeds. You cannot gaurantee that your dog have a specific characteristic, but it is more likely.

I purchased my dogs from breeders I felt were reputable basically for temperment and the hope that my dogs would be less likely to have a genetic disease like hip displaysia. There is always a possibility that any pup produced in a litter may have an issue whether it be a "bad attitude" (as my neice would say) or a health problem. However, it is just not as likely when the breeders have lines of dogs that have proven to produce healthy pups.

I will be quite honest to say that my husband and I do not want a shelter animal in our home. It may sound harsh, but I have no idea what that animal has been subjected to....environmentally or healthwise. I know that shelters and rescues do their best to make sure the dogs are safe enough to be placed in a home, but I have seen so many dogs that have some major issues that were adopted by really nice folks.

I had one in my house for three weeks as a houseguest. He growled at me, he growled at my dogs, he was constantly on the furniture, and fought my dog over an ice cube. I had one gripe at me just last night at the pet store. Everyone could hear the dog through the whole store. She barked at every dog that walked by. The store clerk said "they just adopted that dog, and don't know what's with her just yet."

That kind of thing I have no intention of going through. It's a HUGE liability for the owners that take on a shelter or rescue dog. I am sure there are a number of great stories of dogs that found a home and were the right fit for the family that took them in. But that is a roll of the dice. I am more likely to roll the dice and hit the jackpot if I find a great breeder that have proven they can provide healthy, sound puppies and bring that puppy into my home. I give alot of kudos to those who do adopt. But it is not for everyone...

[LoveMyLabs]

Thanks LMH. I am glad to have the back up for facts that have been previously stated (along with similar opinions) :)

As poundpuppies said "it's like talking to a brick wall". :)
Some people don't want to listen and others don't care...or refuse to actually read a post before insinuating what's said then starting with name calling.

[LoveMyLabs]

No no no. You can't be sure of any dogs temperment pure bred or mix. That is not a fact, that people buy pure breds instead of mixes for temperment. Also, I am all for shelter animals first, how about we reduce the amount of dogs in shelters before we go breeding. Its not like all pure breds will go extinct like you said, concidering there are a TON of pure breds in shelters to. You breed right? Well untill thoes poor animals in shelters are taken care of you are putting more and more dogs out there. And, FACT you never know who will put one of YOUR "pure bred" dogs in a shelter cause they can't care for them anymore or something. So, basically the more you breed ANY dog the more the population increase, and the less shelter animals have at a chance of getting adopted.


I hate to tell you but it IS a fact that people breed for temperament. Why else would pits be vicious if they weren't bred that way? Pits were originally very family oriented, child loving dogs that (due to some very bad breeders), have gotten a bad rep for bad temperaments. Breed right and you don't have the problem.
If you don't breed, yes, the purebreds will go extinct. Dogs only live about 12 years. If you do not carry on the good lines, health, temperament, etc. then after about 12 - 15 years (depending on how long you've had the dogs and how old they were when you got them) there will be no more.
With your theory all the shelter dogs will be taken in and all the purebreds in the shelter (without papers so they can't be bred to reintroduce the same lines that have died out over the years) will be taken in and the purebreds will die out. Great for shelter dogs, but not great for the hundred + purebreds that people enjoy so much.

If any of my buyers put their pup into a shelter they will be sued for breach of contract. All my buyers sign a legal and binding contract that states if they can not keep their dog, for any reason, they must return him/her to us.

[LabMomHouston]

In theory...finding all shelter dogs a home is great. But let's look at reality. That will never happen. Nor will people discontinue breeding "pure-bred" dogs. We should look for realistic ways to reduce their numbers. Spay & neuter. We know there will always be BYB, those who breed for profit, and those who truly breed for the betterment of the breed, but we should do our parts to eliminate the oopsies for dogs that we have no intention to breed.

[LoveMyLabs]

Well put LMH!

I just wish we could get all mixes spayed/neutered and make it mandatory for all those not breeding to better the breed(s) to do the same. Then there would be a great decline in shelter dogs, mixes, and purebreds by byb's. Let's face it, it's still not ethical to mix 2 purebreeds just to create a "new" dog. jmo

[k9mania]

So you are also saying that we should let all of the purebred dogs die out and only have shelter dogs until all shelter dogs are taken care of. Then what? We will not have any purebred hunting, field, pointer, guard, seeing eye, hearing, or police dogs. (Not that a mix can't do it, but they weren't bred to do it so it would be alot harder to get them to.)

It's not just the price tag. It's the fact that purebreds are being mixed for no good reason what-so-ever. The only reason that 99.9% of them are being mixed is for money. The other 1% may actually be tested for hypoallergenic possibilities and such. Breeding purebreds is done for a reason (not money either)...i.e. reducing the risk of hereditary diseases, improving joints/health, improving hunting/field/show/agility, improving upon the breeds conformation, coat and temperament, etc.

I agree people should go to the pound/shelter if they want a dog that will be spayed/neutered, mixed or purebred *without papers*, and in need of a good home. However, there are others that want a purebred dog because it better fits their family or lifestyle *you know what you are getting with a purebred - mixes are a toss up with temperament/size/health*.

There are alot more issues than $$ involved.

There is no guarantee with a purebred that you will get a better temperment than a mix. Even in some lines that are proven champions in confirmation or dog sport, things happen. We must not make generalizations that purebreds are to make the breed better either. There are lots of supposed responsible breeders that breed bitches too frequently and rely on reputation to get more and more $$$$$ on dogs that have bad hips, personality problems etc. Those type of generalizations are how we got breed specific legislation. I get border collies because they fit my lifestyle, personality (type A), and activity level. However any border collie person will tell you that almost every border has some idiosyncracies no matter how good the breeding and that a lab/border would make a great dog for almost any family. But someone does not have to breed them there are plenty of border crosses that have much less personality problems than any purebred. I totally disagree with breeding "designer dogs" and making people think they are worth more than the same mix at the pound. But I would never label a person that bought one because the dog is already born and needs a home. It is the behavior of the breeder wanting to make a buck. If we do that we have to be critical of people like me that only foster rescued borders and get purebreds even though I do not show or want to be a breeder.

[LoveMyLabs]

I've said I have nothing against the people that buy the dogs (unless they do it because they think it's a great new breed and want to fit in with the fad) or anything against the dogs (they didn't do anything). I despise the people that breed them or buy them as a new fad then end up dumping them when they realize they are just mixes.
I dislike the ACHA which promotes designers and mixes making people think they can be papered.
Dogs can have problems even when you try to breed it out of them. It's trial and error most of the time, but if it's done right you usually don't have a whole lot of error.
If a breeder is truly responsible they will not breed more than once a year with the same bitch and will make sure hips/health are checked/tested and offer guarantees.

Guess the world will never be free of shelter dogs or people that don't care if they contribute to shelter dogs. We must do our best to keep them down and only breed the purebreds that actually contribute to the specific breeds health/temper/conformation/etc.

[k9mania]

Dogs can have problems even when you try to breed it out of them. It's trial and error most of the time, but if it's done right you usually don't have a whole lot of error.
If a breeder is truly responsible they will not breed more than once a year with the same bitch and will make sure hips/health are checked/tested and offer guarantees.



Actually the almighty dollar makes it so that it there are fewer and fewer registered breeders that aren't tempted by the $$. Also many would say that trying to breed to AKC standards has made many dogs more neurotic and less pet like. I am not saying me but I know that a good portion of border breeders do not like breeding the herding out of them for conformation. Being passionate and responsible about one's own breeding program and then generalizing that can be dangerous. Because alot of the Pitts that bite are not bred for that they have been trained or put into situations where any dog might bite. Pitts in general are a bit dog aggressive, like borders herd kids, cars, etc. But that can be controlled by good training and responsible informed ownership. There is a very complex and strong relationship between nature and nurture. That is why many "mutts" "rescues" are great dogs because they have not been overbred as a breed and may end up with the best of the mixture they are. And then there are breeds like the BorderJack bred for flyball. Oh my gosh, think of the traits of those 2 breeds individually and what you might get.....

[LoveMyLabs]

All I know (without a shadow of a doubt) is that the Labs we have, and the breeders they came from, fit the standards/health tested/great temperaments, etc.
I traced our females lineage back to a Lab born in 1913 and then, upon further investigation, traced back to 1878 (may be a different year, I'd have to look again). English Ch, FC, NFC, SH, MH, etc.

Everyone else has to figure out their own dogs' breed I suppose...and go by what they think they want and get that kind of dog (mixes or purebred).

Ok, I don't know if that last part made sense or not. :)

[LabMomHouston]

Borders herd kids??? :) How cute.

[k9mania]

Unfortunately, that can not be generalized to all purebred breeders, nor to the dogs they produce. Are you kidding borders herd kids, cats, and lots of borders get hit by cars in the rural areas because of the herding instinct to chase moving objects and put on the border collie pinch. So they don't just chase cars they go for the tires to grip them to move them where they want them to go.:)

[LabMomHouston]

Awww...That is awesome tho...not that they get hit by cars but that they herd. I'd love to watch them try to herd kids.

[LoveMyLabs]

A friend of ours kid (2 yo) was headed towards the road and Gunner headed him off and turned him around and had him come back towards the house. He also "guarded" the little boy while he was sleeping on the floor one day. It was so cute! He'd let you do whatever you wanted to him or the kid, but tried to make sure people didn't accidentally step on 'em. :)

I had a cocker spaniel that chased a car, caught the tire, bit through his tongue and came back so friggin happy (dripping blood out of his mouth) that he'd finally caught one...it wasn't funny, but I get what k9 is talking about.

[skippygurl00]

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22659935-910,00.html


so sad:mad:

[LoveMyLabs]

It's sad that people don't see the problem with "designer dogs". They are mutts with a cute name, that's all. No more, no less. This particular part is what got me:
SA Canine Association president John Carter said he was "fed up" with overpriced crossbreeds and their associated problems.

"We have spent years literally breeding out the faults in dogs and here these people are just putting dogs together and breeding the problems back in," he said.

"We're talking hip dysplasia, eye problems, temperament problems – all kinds of things.

It's so true. Good, ethical, purebred breeders are doing all they can to prevent these faults and try to breed them out of the breeds and these morons come in mixing breeds on purpose for nothing more than money. If there was a reason for the mix - better hunter, more agile, any legitimate reason...I could see if they did it...while doing health testing, temperment testing, and setting conformation standards after a few generations. But these people don't do it.

Anyways, I've stated my peace on this before so I'm done.

[LabMomHouston]

Really sad article. Those comments really explain it all pretty much. Canine associations really should start some sort of public education campaign to attept to eliminate the demand for these kinds of dogs and just demand from byb's in general. If the public truly knew what these dogs go through and the potential genetic complications they may not choose to buy such animals.

[2dogscrzy4ball]

I've been working with dogs for over 16 years. I own a grooming business and see many rare breeds as people like to call them.The truth is if you go to a shelter which 2 of my dogs came from you don't quite know what you're getting.All of your lesser known purebreds have small gene pools which isn't good and with your well known breeds you still don't know what you're getting. I see 15lb. yorkies that people say they have their papers.Mean poodles and bichons and westies with terrible allergies.Two different purebreds that have been bred their puppies are called crossbreeds.I guess it's up to the person paying the bill.I do agree that there are very good dogs at the local shelter, but if you want a certain look or size you may have to pay some money.Why not check out the rescue groups for that breed/crossbreed.

[LoveMyLabs]

That's just the thing though. With two mixed purebreds you don't get a certain look or size. You never know what size, look, colors, temper, or health that you'll get. You will know for a fact what you are getting with a purebred. Not all purebreds are from small gene pools. I don't know what gave you that idea. If you go to one particular breeder, and never go anywhere else, then you will end up with a small gene pool. There are numerous reputable breeders of different purebreds worldwide...so the gene pools are very diverse in 90% of recognized purebred dogs. The only breeds with a small gene pool have either not been recognized yet (but have been breeding and perfecting the dog for numerous years, not a designer dog) or they are still in the process of expanding the breed and don't have many dogs yet.

Designers are just mutts, mixes, mongrels, whatever...they aren't breeds, they aren't healthier, you can't tell what they'll look like, what size they'll be later in life or what kind of temper they'll have.

[Weesha1717]

This is really sad...How about we get thoes dogs out before we breed more? Even Purebreds!


HSUS Pet Overpopulation Estimates



Number of cats and dogs entering shelters each year:
6-8 million (HSUS estimate)

Number of cats and dogs euthanized by shelters each year:
3-4 million (HSUS estimate)


Number of animal shelters in the United States:
Between 4,000 and 6,000 (HSUS estimate)

Percentage of dogs in shelters who are purebred:
25% (HSUS estimate)

Average number of litters a fertile dog can produce in one year: 2

Average number of puppies in a canine litter: 6-10

[molliesmum]

EVOLUTION. Live and let live. I suppose 100 years ago people where saying the same thing about the pure breeds we have now. My sister {Not the one with the beautiful Labradoodles} the one with the Labradore, is having problems with his hips. {100 years on}. Does this mean they should be bred out; I hope not. My point is, If pure breds are still having problems after all this time, who are we to disrespect people who still want them. Molly is a rescue from a shelter, Mia is a cross, love em all.

[Weesha1717]

Oh and....just a few PUREBRED labs,for adoption, before you go and breed them. Thanks!


http://www.cmlrn.com/glance.htm


http://www.labrescuers.org/RP_Adoptable.asp?cid=All


My point is there are a lot of pureberd dogs for adoption to.

[Weesha1717]

EVOLUTION. Live and let live. I suppose 100 years ago people where saying the same thing about the pure breeds we have now. My sister {Not the one with the beautiful Labradoodles} the one with the Labradore, is having problems with his hips. {100 years on}. Does this mean they should be bred out; I hope not. My point is, If pure breds are still having problems after all this time, who are we to disrespect people who still want them. Molly is a rescue from a shelter, Mia is a cross, love em all.

OMG what adorable dogs!! The little one kinda looks like my dog Spunky. Whats the breed?

[molliesmum]

Which one, the small black one

[Weesha1717]

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h142/weesha1717/zzczxc.jpg

[molliesmum]

Oh what a cutie. Love the ears. Cannot believe how passionate people are about their dogs. I know how people feel about cross breeds, but I love my sisters Labradoodles. But I strongly agree about shelter dogs. There are some beauties in those shelters. Best trip I ever made was when I found Moll :D

[Weesha1717]

Yeah I have one more...hee hee Meet Kipper!



http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h142/weesha1717/AHHKIP.jpg

[molliesmum]

Love it !!!!!!! It looks like its saying talk to the ear, Whatever. What great dogs. Do they get on. The dogs we have are really close. They play for hours. Even the designer dogs. LOL.:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Weesha1717]

Inseperable! They are by each other always! Cry and yelp when taken apart.



http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h142/weesha1717/dogba-1.jpg


http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h142/weesha1717/PJS.jpg

[LabMomHouston]

That is a great link Weesha posted. Beautiful dogs...wish they were in TX!

[Shells_k]

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p65/shells_v/Sugarat55months.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p65/shells_v/Sugar-whatulookinatsmaller.jpg

2 Mothers Days ago, my husband brought me home a puppy much to my chagrin. 6 months before, my sister had moved and took her dog Payton with her. payton was my other dog Jessie's playmate and was very sad without her. I had mentioned several times that we should get a DOG as a companion so Jessie wasnt so sad anymore.

Well, here comes dear hubbie home with a 12 week old puppy, not to mention he got her at a pet store to boot. I am a huge believer in getting dogs from shelters, thats where we got Jessie.

Sugar is a mutt, she is a beagle-bichon, a hybrid. As unhappy as I was that my husband bought her from a pet store and she was a little PUPPY, she was home and I was not going to bring her back.

It's been a long 2 years with this little girl. We had our share of LOTS of issues, so far we really have seen most all bichon issues with her. Hard to potty train, in your face, allergic to almost everything including the air she breathes LOL. My husband has begged me this last year to "get rid of her" "bring her to a shelter". My response has always been "exactly. And how do you think all those dogs get to a shelter in the first place? Puppies look SO cute, until you realize how much work they are, they have a less than perfect personality, or god forbid they have any unforseen health issues. FORGET IT. We have her, she is our responsibilty now for better or worse. She is not a toy you can just throw away because you are tired of her."

Period. My fear, with all these designer dogs, is that a good portion of these WILL end up in shelters because of people like my husband. Like the concept and how they look as puppies and have NO idea what you are getting into. Especially with these mixed breeds, you have NO CLUE what their personality will turn out like until after they are home.

Very sad.

[LabMomHouston]

That's a really good point. I wish everyone was accountable and realized their puppy is a life and not a toy. If we all had those same values, we would not have the shelter problem that we have today.

[Weesha1717]

Exactly. But, not all pet stores sell designer dogs. My friend just recently even tho I talked her to death about buying from a pet store, that she needed to adopt...she didn't listen. She bought a Purebred Pug for $1,200!!!! What have you ever heard of that??? $1,200??? For a pug? I was mad but what could I do, as long as there are breeders that sell to puppy stores, there will be mass amounts of puppys sold for unheard of amounts. Oh, and they wanted $3,400 for a Great Dane. Yeah right. This store only has Purebred dogs, beasically there was I think 2 out of the 75 puppies that were mixed. Where do you think those dogs will end up..."How much is that doggie in the window.....How much is that doggie suffering in the window" Oh the kicker!! The dogs they sell Purebed...are from Registered breeds!!!! Not puppy mills. Poor dogs, I will prob. see most of them in The Humane Society making up that 25% purebred dog statistic in about 1 year!

[LabMomHouston]

I agree with that...I saw an English Bulldog that was being sold for 4800 bux. My hubs and I looked a pup one time...I think they wanted 1400 for a Lab puppy. Funny thing is that puppy didn't look as healthy. Very sweet. Very cute.

[Weesha1717]

Yeah there are so many Labs, Golden Retrevers, Pugs, ect...out there and waiting to be adopted. They are very common dogs. I don't understand the reason for breeding them? I understand a very rare dog breed. But, why breed the most comon house hold dogs??. The only reason I don't support designer dog breeding is because I don't feel that anyone should be breeding any dog untill the shelter sizes decrease.

[LabMomHouston]

Yeah I looked at the links you posted for Labs...Great looking dogs and all look sooo sweet. I know you can't ever tell by how they look...its like wanting to hug a panda bear, but I might toy around with the idea at fostering a dog. I don't think I am ready for adoption with having two already. I have to keep my dogs happiness and well being my first priority, but I may be able to be a foster for a few months. I will have to talk that over with my spouse and see his point of view. I know he's a firm believer in not adopting because of all behaivoral issues with the adoptees he has met. But I did locate a Lab Resuce here in Houston and hope at the very least I can donate my time. We will see. Heck, I should have donated that $60 they goofy magazine guy talked me into buying. I'll keep that in mind the next time I want to buy something I don't need.

[chesapeake]

Yeah there are so many Labs, Golden Retrievers, Pugs, etc...out there and waiting to be adopted. They are very common dogs! I don't understand the reason for breeding them? I understand a very rare dog breed. But, why breed the most common house hold dogs?? For money...that's why they do it. They don't care about the breed itself they just want the money for themselves. Its really sickening. The only reason I don't support designer dog breeding is because I don't feel that anyone should be breeding any dog until the shelter sizes decrease.

OMG what a huge generalisation. Does Weesha1717 believe that dog breeding is easy? Caring for newborn puppies is extremely hard work (much harder than looking after newborn babies....Mum of 4, so I do have experience of this) then interviewing potential purchasers, ensuring that your puppies go to the very best homes...... Vet checks, inoculations, micro chipping etc. Really Weesha1717, it's not easy money. I know lots of people who have bred one litter, and after the experience, would never do so again.

As for adult shelter dogs..... I would never recommend one to a family with children, or anyone planning to have children. Without knowing exactly what experiences the dog has had, and what triggers could provoke an aggressive reaction, would anybody take the risk?

Yes, it is extremely sad that many thousands of dogs, cats and other animals end their lives in shelters, and thankfully, with a birth rate of only 200 puppies a year in the U.K. (I generally account for around 6 of those puppies), I can pick and choose who gets my puppies, as they are in very high demand, but of others who breed Labradors, Retrievers and Pugs..... Disregard the posting from Weesha1717, the comments are based on ignorant opinion and not fact.

[LabMomHouston]

That's why we have no adopted a dog in the past. My husband is really against if for that very fact. I know dogs are screened but it's hard to know what those dogs have been through and how they will react to you, your home, and your family. If I had children I wouldn't ever take the risk.

[Weesha1717]

OMG what a huge generalisation. Does Weesha1717 believe that dog breeding is easy? Caring for newborn puppies is extremely hard work (much harder than looking after newborn babies....Mum of 4, so I do have experience of this) then interviewing potential purchasers, ensuring that your puppies go to the very best homes...... Vet checks, inoculations, micro chipping etc. Really Weesha1717, it's not easy money. I know lots of people who have bred one litter, and after the experience, would never do so again.

As for adult shelter dogs..... I would never recommend one to a family with children, or anyone planning to have children. Without knowing exactly what experiences the dog has had, and what triggers could provoke an aggressive reaction, would anybody take the risk?

Yes, it is extremely sad that many thousands of dogs, cats and other animals end their lives in shelters, and thankfully, with a birth rate of only 200 puppies a year in the U.K. (I generally account for around 6 of those puppies), I can pick and choose who gets my puppies, as they are in very high demand, but of others who breed Labradors, Retrievers and Pugs..... Disregard the posting from Weesha1717, the comments are based on ignorant opinion and not fact.



Excuse me its so hard to take care of puppys, yeah its hard to take care of any living creature. And, complain all you want like "I guess you don't know what goes on to raise dogs"....I volunteer at the Humane Society by me Beleive me I know what hard work is! Like its hard for the hundreds of citizens living in my county to pay taxes on irrespondsible breeders. My tax money goes to irrespondsible breeders who only care about there money. We have to pay for the taxes on humane societys, dog warden taxes, ect. Sorry you can't face the facts, go look at my FACT sheet I posted above, oh and tell The HUMANE SOCIETY OF THE US, they don't have there facts strait thanks. Oh and let the perfessionals make the desicion on who should adopt from a shelter if they have kids, that is their job and career.

[Weesha1717]

I don't like stating certian arguments to certian people, but you attacked me first. My moto is Dont breed or buy when shelter pets die. These are just my opinions, I state only facts I can back up. Im not attacking you or any other pug, lab, ect breeder, I think that I have made it clear that I feel that breeders should wait untill the shelter sizes decrease. Not forever stop breeding.

[chesapeake]

I don't like stating certain arguments to certain people, but you attacked me first. My motto is Don't breed or buy when shelter pets die. These are just my opinions, I state only facts I can back up. I'm not attacking you or any other pug, lab, etc breeder, I think that I have made it clear that I feel that breeders should wait until the shelter sizes decrease. Not forever stop breeding.

Attacked you first?

Do you think you could be taking this forum a little too seriously?

My posting was in response to your previous posting which was hugely generalised. I know of at least one Labrador breeder on here, to whom none of your comments would apply, she is totally committed to her dogs, and ensures (as do I, and all the other breeders on the forum) that her puppies are health screened, socialised, and go to the very best homes.

Your response was a rant about your taxes, a misquote and an assumption that I was in some way criticizing the policies of the US Humane Society!

Rescue dogs are not suitable for everybody, that is a fact. I would not consider an adult rescue dog, as I have 4 children, and no assurance from a rescue would be sufficient for me as far as my children's safety is concerned. My friend adopted a year old mixed breed dog, which attacked her son, when frightened by fireworks, and previous postings on the Rescue forum by Dallas would also indicate to you that not all animal rescues sufficiently screen their dogs. (Thanks for your comments too LabMomHouston)

You will notice that I have not generalised about rescues, neither have I "attacked you" in any way. I have voiced my opinions, and I have defended my perspective. As long as I produce healthy, happy puppies, which are all health screened, micro chipped and inoculated prior to sale, and those puppies go to the very best homes, I sleep soundly at night.

[Weesha1717]

Attacked you first?

Do you think you could be taking this forum a little too seriously?

My posting was in response to your previous posting which was hugely generalised. I know of at least one Labrador breeder on here, to whom none of your comments would apply, she is totally committed to her dogs, and ensures (as do I, and all the other breeders on the forum) that her puppies are health screened, socialised, and go to the very best homes.

Your response was a rant about your taxes, a misquote and an assumption that I was in some way criticizing the policies of the US Humane Society!

Rescue dogs are not suitable for everybody, that is a fact. I would not consider an adult rescue dog, as I have 4 children, and no assurance from a rescue would be sufficient for me as far as my children's safety is concerned. My friend adopted a year old mixed breed dog, which attacked her son, when frightened by fireworks, and previous postings on the Rescue forum by Dallas would also indicate to you that not all animal rescues sufficiently screen their dogs. (Thanks for your comments too LabMomHouston)

You will notice that I have not generalised about rescues, neither have I "attacked you" in any way. I have voiced my opinions, and I have defended my perspective. As long as I produce healthy, happy puppies, which are all health screened, micro chipped and inoculated prior to sale, and those puppies go to the very best homes, I sleep soundly at night.










Good for you. If you want to put your self and other breeders into the irresponsible breeders position, go head. If you are an irresponsible breeder that is what I was referring to. You are arguing for them right now. Go re-read the posts. And, for not adopting an adult dog from the humane society that is preference not fact. One occurrence that your friend had doesn’t account for all adult shelter dogs. Most shelter dogs are very good with children, they are tested by professionals and not adopted out to children with families, I guess you aren’t familiar with how the humane society’s work.

[LabMomHouston]

Well here's my two cents for what it is worth. There are a huge number of people that argue adoption is the only way to go but yet have purchased the dogs they own. That's what I don't understand...

Adoption isn't always the best way to go...and it's naive to say that it's the best situation for every person. I agree with Chessie in that debate. I cannot truly believe that a professional that spends a few days, few weeks, or even a few months can truly know how a dog would react in certain situations....for instance the friend who's child was attacked when the fireworks went off. A professional evaulating a dog would never with the the dog in that situation unless theyre firing guns at the humane society and we know that's not happening. I have met two rescue dogs. One is owned by my brother in law and I would not allow my nephew who was 5 at the time pet him because he was very aggressive and I felt couldnt be trusted. The other was the Irish Setter that visited my home for 3 weeks...he had 5 homes in his lifetime and I could see why. He growled at me and at my dogs. He was friendly most times but so uncomfortable in certain situations that I would not even give him a bath.

As far as breeders...unfortunately, some are not always as responsible as they should be...ie the dogs end up being mixed to make designer dogs or provided to pet stores for sale. But we will never stop dogs from being bred. Many dogs are bred for show, field, or working animals....an older rescue will never be able to fill these needs...

Our real arguement should be let's spay and neuter dogs that won't be bred for show or working dogs...eliminate the accidental breedings. Let's be honest I would bet a huge portion of animals in the shelters are dogs from unplanned litters....even purebred dogs can be from unplanned litters...purebred doesn't equal responsible breeding.

[Weesha1717]

Agree. But, every dog can have a down fall. Even ones you get as puppys, not from the humane society. Even the dogs that get bred and raised around children can turn, any dog can be unpredictable they are animals when it comes down to it.

[LoveMyLabs]

Numbers in shelters will never go down no matter how many breeders stop breeding. There will always be irresponsible, unethical, money hungry byb's, puppy mills and pet stores that will continue what they are doing.
So my question is this - Would you rather have the above mentioned people breeding substandard dogs that will end up in one of the shelters that you are trying so hard to empty? OR would you rather the responsible, ethical breeders (that do health screenings/certs, temperment testing, hunting/field trials and shows, meet/exceed conformation, interview potential owners, guarantees, etc) breed their purebreds to improve the breeds and reduce the risk of health and temperment issues - which in turn reduces the number of shelter dogs - while trying to find homes for the dogs already in shelters?

I think it's simpler the second way. The problem is, you can't stop the bad one's from doing what they are doing. The byb's, puppy millers, pet stores and designer/hybrid breeders are always going to do what they do because they worship the almighty dollar.
In case you didn't know, a responsible breeder doesn't make money doing what they do. They aren't in it for the money. They are in it to better the breed and improve upon already great lines.

That being said -- hybrids contribute just as much to the humane society population as purebreds do. This next bit comes from a study that was done by Purdue University of Veterinary Medicine:

Mixed breed dogs are 1.8 times more likely to be euthanized as purebred dogs, and the risk of euthanasia increases with age for mixed breeds but not purebreds.

Purebreds comprise a lower percentage (32.7) of surrendered dogs, and their adoption rate (49.9) is slightly less than the 51.4 percent rate for mixed breeds.

More than 67 percent of purebreds are returned to their owners;
41 percent of mixed breeds are reclaimed.

“This suggests that owners of purebred dogs are more aware that their dog is missing, were more concerned with getting their dog back promptly, or that they expended greater effort in attempting to locate their dog,” the authors wrote. “This is consistent with a national survey that indicated length of ownership was related to the initial cost of the animal.”

So apparently there are more mixed breeds/designers in shelters than purebreds AND purebreds get reclaimed or adopted out faster.

As far as the 25% being purebred - that's fine, but many people want or need the registration papers to show or compete with their purebred dog. If you want a purebred as a housepet, then a shelter dog is great. The HSUS also says: "Before buying a dog, take a visit your local animal shelter. One of four shelter dogs is a purebred, and the rest are hybrids in their own right – mixes of two or more breeds. If you want a true "one-in-a-million" dog, you will find one at a shelter – and you will save hundreds to thousands of dollars and save a life." So you can get a "designer dog" at the shelter as well. :)
So anyone on here, or any other place, that bought a mix should have gone to a shelter instead. So I suppose it's a matter of practicing what you preach.

[chesapeake]

Good for you. If you want to put your self and other breeders into the irresponsible breeders position, go head. If you are an irresponsible breeder that is what I was referring to. You are arguing for them right now. Go re-read the posts. And, for not adopting an adult dog from the humane society that is preference not fact. One occurrence that your friend had doesn’t account for all adult shelter dogs. Most shelter dogs are very good with children, they are tested by professionals and not adopted out to children with families, I guess you aren’t familiar with how the humane society’s work.

You have contradicted yourself here. You appear to adopt the stance that if somebody doesn't agree with your opinions, that their opinion is not valid. Your accusation that I, or anyone else on this forum is an irresponsible breeder is again based on ignorant opinion, and not on fact.

I understand your perspective (I am open-minded enough to make due consideration of every body's opinions), but demonising dog breeders and making huge generalisations to enable yourself to support your opinion that "Nobody should breed or buy whilst shelter dogs die" displays an extremely blinkered attitude, and views that have been formed from only one perspective.

Suggesting that a person who is looking to buy a KC registered puppy from a breeder, who found that there were none available, would therefore decide to adopt a dog from a rescue is naive in the extreme. (Your friend who bought a pedigree Pug puppy, despite you giving her details of all the dogs at the Humane society, where you volunteer, being a point of fact)

Reality is akin to a rich tapestry, made from millions of different coloured threads, each representing an individual's choices, the freedom to make these choices, being set in statute in both of our great democratic countries.

[ann_hawes]

As someone who has nothing but shelter dogs, I can say that it's perfectly fine to adopt adult dogs. ANY dog that is going to be around children should be well socialized to them. And adult dogs can be socialized and trained. I have living proof of that in my home.

As for the poor little designer dogs, I'd love to see a study of how many end up in shelters. I personally know someone who has purchased 6 of them in the last 5 years, and she has none of them now. All went to the shelter. All were less than a year old when they went there. One was given to a family member first, but it's last stop was the shelter, regardless.

When there's a breed standard to go by, you at least know what to expect the dog to be like.

[LabMomHouston]

I agree that dogs are animals and any of them can be unpredictable. However, you are more likely to have a well socialized, calm, confident animal if you have had them since a puppy if you have done the work needed. You cannot say the same for a dog that has had 5 different homes and been in shelter and/or possibly abused. As I have said in many of my posts...any dog put in the correct situation can bite. However, I will say this...Gunner is the calmest dog I have ever met. My neice and nephew have played with him, crawled on him, pulled his ears and tail, wrestled with him, and played tug of war and fetch with him. My neice has played with him since she was old enough to crawl and my nephew since he was 5. I have never trusted a dog as much as I trust Gunner. Since adopting a shelter pet means I typically am not getting them at the puppy stage, I would not trust an adopted older dog in those situations mentioned above. Children are unpredictable and dogs are as well...that can make for a bad situation sometimes. But I am so confident in Gunner being his predictable old self that I am very comfortable allowing my neice and nephew crawl all over him.

Bella on the other hand is still a wild monkey. She still needs alot of socialization and training before I would let my 3 yr old neice have the freedom of wrestling with her. She's a nipper and I know that, but by the time she is Gunner's age I expect she will have the same social, calm, confident attitude Gunner has grown up to have. We're still working on that.

[Weesha1717]

Sorry but, I am for the shelter dogs. "Don't breed or buy when shelter pets die" Most make better pets and more loyal companions since their troubled past. They are most of the time easier to bond with, easier to train (even if older "you CAN teach an old dog new tricks), and some (Mutts) are very better tempered with children than Purebred breeds (Proven). Breeders can keep on breeding, even the "good" breeders and perfectly good shelter pets will die because of it, along with irresponsible pet owners producing animals that should never be, and pet stores who are out for the money, getting it from those irresponsible & responsible breeders. You walk into the humane society I volunteer at what hits you....its the loud barking of: 1 purebred bloodhound, 2 purebred shitz, 1 pit-mix, 4 purebred black labs, 1 rot-mix, 1 purebred Jack Russell, 1 Jack-mix, and about three other mutts. Let me say that that is a GREAT example of the diversity in shelter. 8! 8 purebreds as of now. It's sad. All dogs deserve a second chance and not to be replaced by "better" or "purebred" breeds. Dogs are dogs. They have the same genetic material. Even though they aren't the same breed, they have "regular" characteristics that will follow each and every single one of them through life no matter the breed. Instinct you can't erase by select breeding, sorry that's Mother Nature & creation. Don't pass around false ideas of not adopting shelter dogs to families with children, which is an unrealistic statement. Every dog is different. Every dog deserves a better start at life, if it means training than training it shall be. If everyone were stuck on that fact, than we should just shut down all the rescues and humane societies, because those dogs are marked with "Bad Reputation", even though it was the OWNERS fault. Sorry I will never buy from a breeder & I encourage people not to, there is no practical reason, when you can get a "healthy ALIVE same breed" at a shelter or rescue. Same as pet stores they will never get my business or the business of others I can help understand the dangers of pet stores.

[LabMomHouston]

Didn't you spend $200 on your pups? You would have had to purchase from a breeder...and I think the reasoning we got was that there were no small dogs that you were looking for at the shelter in your area. This is what bothers me about this thread. I understand people are passionate about adopting pets. However, to state that everyone should stop breeding and only adopt shelter animals is really a naive. It's not going to happen and it's not right for every person or family...you're a prime example of that. And I think in other posts it has been mentioned that we have the freedom of choosing what is best for our family and I think we can all agree with that one. Maybe instead of debating a point that we know will never happen, we should debate things that are achievable. For instance, lets all spay and neuter and let's all volunteer as you do at a shelter. Debating that we shouldn't breed dogs until the numbers in shelters reduce is like saying we shouldn't have to pay taxes. It's a good thought, but we all know its not going to happen.

[chesapeake]

Bravo LabMomHouston.

Can we start a new thread now please..... 222 replies would indicate to me that the subject of Designer dogs has now been fully explored......?

[Weesha1717]

Ok guys :) Keep doing what you are doing. And, I'll keep doing what I am doing...Transporting rescue animals and volunteering at our local shelter.

[LabMomHouston]

It will come back....it always does. :) I agree new subject.

[Weesha1717]

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e264/sinnfullyouth/animalshelters.jpg

[LabMomHouston]

I will have to say Weesha that your links and passionate views have led me to look at the Lab Rescue sites in SE Texas and central Texas. I have offered my time with one and will be offering transport from Austin to Houston at the other. I have even talked to my husband about fostering. We will see how that works out. Your links from the other day really got to my heart. Even though we may not agree....I do believe that your spirit to volunteer may be rubbing off on me.

[Weesha1717]

There is nothing more rewarding than helping an animal in need. If you start to foster those poor creatures, who have had a rough life, I am sure you will come to see my view a lot better, through experience. I speak nothing but experience. I help at the shelter every chance I get. And, on every Saturday & Sunday. Once you see the way those poor dogs live n act i'm sure you will understand my view a lot better. Awsome job with the transportings, those are very rewarding also knowing that you will be helping that animal(s) travel to their new life.

[LabMomHouston]

Well thanks for the encouragement. We are still discussing the idea. It's a commitment just as owning a dog and we want to make sure we are prepared for.

[ann_hawes]

I know some of you want this thread to end, but I have to do this one thing in defense of ADULT shelter dogs. ;)
These dogs were all at least 15 months old when I adopted them from the shelter. The big male was about 3 years old, and is now 9 yrs.
The little female bowing down low for a pet from my grandson is NOT a terribly submissive dog by nature, yet she was taught to be when with any child.
The picture of my granddaughter running with the dogs was taken last winter. They were all out looking for an adventure, but you can see that they are all following her lead. She was 3 yrs old at the time. And there were actually 6 dogs running with her, but not all would fit in that little tiny viewfinder. (That can be problematic with Rotties and other large breeds).
Most of the dogs I have adopted had never spent much time in a house before. They know they have it made where they are now, as opposed to where they came from. They're incredible dogs.

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z45/adhawes_photos/r-wyattlibrom-2.jpg

IMG]http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z45/adhawes_photos/libgettingapet.jpg[/IMG]

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z45/adhawes_photos/anadventure.jpg

[ann_hawes]

For some reason the second picture isn't coming up. Maybe it is for all of you, but not for me. I will repost, but can delete if it is showing up in the first post.

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z45/adhawes_photos/libgettingapet.jpg

[kellynharley]

Those are lovely pics

[LabMomHouston]

I agree those are great pictures.

[Weesha1717]

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o92/misplaceddreamer/Thank%20you/thanksforallyouddo.jpg


A HUGE thank you for helping shelter animals! Every dog deserves a chance no matter the age! Your dogs are sooo pretty! They look wonderful with the little one :)

[ann_hawes]

Those are lovely pics


Thank you!
I just want to show that adult shelter dogs are most often every bit as good as a puppy. They just need training and socialization that they most likely did not get as puppies (or they wouldn't perhaps have ended up in the shelter!).

Ann

[lovethatdogg]

What loveley pictures! This post desearves a metal for longest argued! lol

[johnanddoggies]

I have always been agenst designer breeding for a special look enhancing traits like senting and trainability is totaly different. there are plenty of shelter dogs that make great pets take elle for example .I adopted her with 1 day left at the shelter she will be going for her search and rescue quilification in febuary and I think her chances of passing are good .just 1 example of a good shelter dog

[ann_hawes]

I will agree that a shelter dog may not always be the best fit for any given home, but there they are, waiting for someone to show a little mercy, and they're just as easy to train as any other dog.

Dogs are born with at least a smidgen of prey drive, which is the number one ingredient in children being bitten. Some have more than others, however, I don't think the breed of dog matters much. Any dog with high prey drive needs extra attention. Doesn't matter whether it came from a quality breeder or a shelter.

[Weesha1717]

I will agree that a shelter dog may not always be the best fit for any given home, but there they are, waiting for someone to show a little mercy, and they're just as easy to train as any other dog.

Dogs are born with at least a smidgen of prey drive, which is the number one ingredient in children being bitten. Some have more than others, however, I don't think the breed of dog matters much. Any dog with high prey drive needs extra attention. Doesn't matter whether it came from a quality breeder or a shelter.

I strongly agree!

[2dogscrzy4ball]

You didn't pay attention. Nonpopular breeds have small gene pools. Ask any breeder of oh say Berners. With purebreeds you Don't know what you're getting. I've seen 10lb teacup poodles,15lb yorkies, aggressive labs and goldens, very tall cockers with bad hair. Dogs are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get, muts,crossbreeds,and purebreeds.

[LoveMyLabs]

You didn't pay attention. Nonpopular breeds have small gene pools. Ask any breeder of oh say Berners. With purebreeds you Don't know what you're getting. I've seen 10lb teacup poodles,15lb yorkies, aggressive labs and goldens, very tall cockers with bad hair. Dogs are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get, muts,crossbreeds,and purebreeds.

Then you have seen all those dogs come from bad breeders. A true purebred, of any breed, is a compliment to that breed and its' standard. If you've seen any of the dogs listed above you've seen poorly bred purebreds by byb's or puppymills. A true purebred adheres to, and exceeds, the standards of conformation and temperment.

As for Weesha's comments about so many purebreds in her shelter - How do you KNOW they are purebred? Do you know who the mother and father of those dogs are or do they just "look" purebred?

[ann_hawes]

"With purebreeds you Don't know what you're getting. I've seen 10lb teacup poodles,15lb yorkies, aggressive labs and goldens, very tall cockers with bad hair. Dogs are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get, muts,crossbreeds,and purebreeds."


You would have a much better idea of what you're getting with a purebred dog than with a mixed breed, especially if it comes from a quality breeder.
You will know approximately what it will weigh as an adult (which matters a LOT to apartment dwellers that have restrictions on the weight of a dog), what the coat will be like, what it was originally bred for, activity level it will require, etc.
Purebred dogs were actually crafted by the hand of man, not by the hand of God. They were bred and developed to be what they are and what they look like for a purpose.

A neighbor of mine once adopted a Collie/Shepherd mix from a shelter. It was a beautiful dog, looked like a GSD for all intents and purposes. She took it to the vet, listed it as a GSD mix, and started treatment for sarcoptic mange. On the 4th day, the dog started drooling, vomiting, and died.
The Collie portion of the dog had brought with it a strong sensitivity to Ivermectin.

No, you never know for certain what you're going to get. But breed standards are a guideline for what to expect.

Even after all of that, there are fabulous mixed breed dogs as well as purebred dogs needing homes.
My philosphy is: a dog is a dog is a dog.
They all require basically the same things.

Personally, I prefer large dogs. Always have.
Rotties aren't my personal favorite, although I obviously enjoy them a lot. They just happen to be a breed that frequently gets dumped at shelters, and I can manage several at a time. It's my small contribution to the huge problem of pet overpopulation.
I've been pulling them from shelters much longer than there have been breed rescues. And even now, now that there are multiple rescues around the world, they are always full. Wonderful dogs still die simply because there is nothing else to be done with them.

[Weesha1717]

Then you have seen all those dogs come from bad breeders. A true purebred, of any breed, is a compliment to that breed and its' standard. If you've seen any of the dogs listed above you've seen poorly bred purebreds by byb's or puppymills. A true purebred adheres to, and exceeds, the standards of conformation and temperment.

As for Weesha's comments about so many purebreds in her shelter - How do you KNOW they are purebred? Do you know who the mother and father of those dogs are or do they just "look" purebred?

Well concidering I Volunteer there, along side of the shelter veternarians, vet tecs, ect..I think they know. Also not sure if you have ever been to a humane society before...but every dog has an ID card. with every single bit of info about them on it, from there old family, friends, old vets, dog warrden ect...thats how I know :)

[Weesha1717]

"With purebreeds you Don't know what you're getting. I've seen 10lb teacup poodles,15lb yorkies, aggressive labs and goldens, very tall cockers with bad hair. Dogs are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get, muts,crossbreeds,and purebreeds."


You would have a much better idea of what you're getting with a purebred dog than with a mixed breed, especially if it comes from a quality breeder.
You will know approximately what it will weigh as an adult (which matters a LOT to apartment dwellers that have restrictions on the weight of a dog), what the coat will be like, what it was originally bred for, activity level it will require, etc.
Purebred dogs were actually crafted by the hand of man, not by the hand of God. They were bred and developed to be what they are and what they look like for a purpose.

A neighbor of mine once adopted a Collie/Shepherd mix from a shelter. It was a beautiful dog, looked like a GSD for all intents and purposes. She took it to the vet, listed it as a GSD mix, and started treatment for sarcoptic mange. On the 4th day, the dog started drooling, vomiting, and died.
The Collie portion of the dog had brought with it a strong sensitivity to Ivermectin.

No, you never know for certain what you're going to get. But breed standards are a guideline for what to expect.

Even after all of that, there are fabulous mixed breed dogs as well as purebred dogs needing homes.
My philosphy is: a dog is a dog is a dog.
They all require basically the same things.

Personally, I prefer large dogs. Always have.
Rotties aren't my personal favorite, although I obviously enjoy them a lot. They just happen to be a breed that frequently gets dumped at shelters, and I can manage several at a time. It's my small contribution to the huge problem of pet overpopulation.
I've been pulling them from shelters much longer than there have been breed rescues. And even now, now that there are multiple rescues around the world, they are always full. Wonderful dogs still die simply because there is nothing else to be done with them.


We also have a big baby girl rott at our shelter (9ys). She is there cause they think she may have cancer (owners dumped her) :( Adorable fun dog! I hope she gets a forever home, as long as they can take care of the cancer, they are waiting for the surgery results, she will live a long and happy life, if someone can save her.

[LoveMyLabs]

Even vets aren't correct about a dogs breed 100% of the time. You can have (for example) a lab and poodle mix that looks like a curly coated retriever...a Golden that may look like a Setter or vice versa...a Black Mouth Cur that looks like a Great Dane.
My point is that breeds, and breed mixes, can look like other breeds depending on how they were bred and how closely related they are.

Do ALL of the dogs that come to the shelter have a complete history? In other words, do ALL the people that dropped them off KNOW who the parents of the dogs were and if they were registered, purebred, etc.? Also, do dogs just show up on the H.S. doorstep sometimes or does everyone actually have to bring the dog in personally? I know some places that dogs just show up at, dropped off by uncaring people in the middle of the night, and the vets/techs/volunteers know nothing about the dog and have to guess about the breed or cross it may be.

[Weesha1717]

Yes, many just show up. A lot are surrendered. Every card has exact info on it, for legal purposes. If they aren’t exactly sure of the breed, they always will put mix. You can't lie about a breed its illegal. Also, Vets are very accurate. If we are going to second guess the vets, we might as well second guess breeders also. How do I know you or anyone for that matter know that your or any pure breed dogs are Pure? You can say I have papers, ok, but what if the people before you did, the people before you did, BUT the people before them Lied about the breed & info? That would make your dogs/any breeder just as accurate about the breed. It happens.

[Shells_k]

Did you know that you can have a genetic test done to see what breeds your dog is part of? They only have certain dogs in the database so far, so sometimes I guess they come up with an as of yet unidentified breed.


http://www.metamorphixinc.com/products2a.html

[LoveMyLabs]

Besides the genetic and dna testing I know, for a fact, that one of my Labs goes back to 1878. So, yeah, I know my dogs are purebred Labs. The other one has papers back for at least 5 generations and you can't register a dog with AKC unless the parents are registered (and have been DNA tested if you are unsure as to who the father was).

BYB's and puppy mills do falsify their records or just plain lie about what kind of dogs they have. They also tend to use ACHC or CKC or APRI to register their dogs. None of which require "proof" that the dog is purebred except for pictures of the dog and papers from the parents from another KC. So if the parents were registered by one of the above KC's it doesn't really mean much. The only one's I trust are AKC, Canadian KC and UKC. Not saying that other overseas KC's aren't good and reputable, I just don't know about those yet.

[LoveMyLabs]

Oh yeah, and the one's that "just show up"...how do you really know what they are without dna/genetic testing being done? Just because it looks like a pit and walks like a pit doesn't mean it is a pit. :) There are many breeds, as I said before, that look similar. Even vets can be off sometimes.

[Weesha1717]

Oh yeah, and the one's that "just show up"...how do you really know what they are without dna/genetic testing being done? Just because it looks like a pit and walks like a pit doesn't mean it is a pit. :) There are many breeds, as I said before, that look similar. Even vets can be off sometimes.

Exactly like I said in the last post they MUST be classified as "Mixed". Please re-read my last post about what the legal standards and info are. No one not even breeders can be 100% sure of there dogs. There is always an exception. Dogs go back many many many many generations. :)