Click here to Register

K9Mania.com - Forums By Dog Lovers for Dog Lovers > K9 Mania Dog Park > DRAWING FORUM » New Drawing Contest 2/16/08 to 4/1/08
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-21-2008, 12:10 AM   #21
2dogscrzy4ball
Been Around A While

 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,286
That's funny about the vegan wearing leather thing. About 7 years ago I purchased a JackRussell that wasn't registered. They had the parents on sight and the male was registered but not the female. I knew that I wanted to do some obedience w/ her and as long as she was fixed and I sent a picture I could get one of those numbers (forgot the name of it) and I could show her in obedience. I think the AKC should be involved but like Ann I think they make way too much money off of it to do anything about it. I also think that your local county/city employees don't give a hoot on who breeds what.
2dogscrzy4ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 12:20 AM   #22
ann_hawes
Been Around A While
 
ann_hawes's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kokomo, Indiana USA
Posts: 1,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Furbilator View Post
Also, just to clarify it to anyone who reads these posts, I am not a mutt snob (someone who doesn't like mixed breeds). Some of the best pets are those who have different breeds in them. I am just stating the reality that most dogs found in shelters are mix breeds. Few pure-breds end up in the shelters simply because owners have had to fork out considerable cash to purchase the animal and will be less inclined to toss that $1000 animal to the curb on a whim. Also, it is more likely that the owner has thought long and hard about the dog purchase when there is considerable money involved.

It does happen, but rarely in my experience.
The HSUS says that 25% of all dogs entering shelters are purebreds. This is a direct result of irresponsible breeders. Many simply obtain two registered dogs of the same breed and put them together to start making puppies. They don't do health screens, they don't care about temperament, and they really don't care where the pups end up as adults. They want the money.
ann_hawes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 06:13 AM   #23
k9mania
Administrator

 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,939
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dogscrzy4ball View Post
That's funny about the vegan wearing leather thing. About 7 years ago I purchased a JackRussell that wasn't registered. They had the parents on sight and the male was registered but not the female. I knew that I wanted to do some obedience w/ her and as long as she was fixed and I sent a picture I could get one of those numbers (forgot the name of it) and I could show her in obedience. I think the AKC should be involved but like Ann I think they make way too much money off of it to do anything about it. I also think that your local county/city employees don't give a hoot on who breeds what.

I too think that the AKC would be one of the groups fighting legislation unless it was clear about breeding specifications. They would have to be clear because they would think there were loopholes that would stop reputable breeders. They do make money and would not want to give it up. They would be a major lobbying group.

Enforcement would be difficult but::::there should be some data showing what it costs a city, county, state, region, to put down, take care of, neglected and dumped dogs. Also how many dog attacks are caused by dogs bred by backyard breeders not breeding to enhance the structure or performance of the breed. Think of all the volunteers a city could enlist to call or visit people offering dogs in the paper, on the internet, etc. to see if they are licensed, if not, report them. Now to be licensed you would have to have clear guidelines. The costs for licensing would have to be stiff so that only people who planned breeding for years, not a litter or two. The fines for not neutering or spaying would have to be stiff also.

Interesting concept to have spay/neuter built into the cost of buying a puppy. How could you do that? Could a fund be developed from fines collected and breeding licenses for help like they do for feral cats? I don't know. Obviously mixed breeds are the bulk of backyard breeders or accidents because people don't get them fixed but we need to take control of purebred and mixed breedings.

I know that both breeders that I bought my borders from sold them with a contract that stated they had to be spayed by x months. If you did get ot have a bitch and you were wanted to breed it was co-owned and the breeder selected the breeding match if the dog has met the structure and performace criteria for her line. Yes, someone could breed the dog without the breeders knowledge but then hopefully they would get caught trying to sell the puppies.

This is such complex issue it may take steps. Canada may be different than the US or Australia or the UK but we all have the same problem.

As some have pointed out, reputable breeders will follow the rules and there will still be puppymills and byb. That is true but if legislation is clear and there is enforcement it will cut down tremendously on such breedings. We have to start somewhere. Michael Vick had a kennel license obviously no one checked his facility after giving him the license. I am sure that he had the funds to buy some of the best registered dogs available. But if there were some guidelines on demonstrating that your breedings were adding to structure or performance of the breed..i.e. (not fighting) but hunting - meaning documentation - we know that the way people show people how good their dogs are by showing the championships, the competitions, the working ability or their breeding pair or their lineage and past litters. In a border collie or some working dog, farmers ranchers testimonials of working ability of.. yes this is difficult but I guarantee that reputable breeders can tell you this information right now.

I am rambling now. My head is full. I will look over everyone's stuff next week. Put all the ideas and then keep adding them. I would like more feedback like people made to Furbilator. My lawyer friend will help us. I think if we can get some steps in order, some of us can find out from Humane Society or some organization why these types of things have not been able to pass.
k9mania is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 02:43 PM   #24
rannalabs
Site Regular
 
rannalabs's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North West
Posts: 85
I have to ask, did no-one read what I wrote about the spay/neuter ???? Please, why is FORCING people to do this, a good idea ? That is what you all are talking about.. YES some dogs can not be fixed... No matter how good the vet is, they can't be fixed because the VET believes the dog will not make it. YES it can and DOES happen. I have a friend whos parents have a dog who CAN NOT be spayed because the vet told them she would die on the table. Do you all have no heart ? Why would you force that dog away from thoughs people... Imagin your self saying "Folks, I'm sorry but I have to take your dog away and uless you don't agree to spay her, you won't get her back ? " do you have the heart to do that ??? Oh, and say they do fork over the money to spay and she dies. What would you do. "Oh, I'm sorry, but your dog died while in surgery, here is her body back. We though you would like to see it ?" Com-on... We don't need more laws. We need to help people.. Some just don't know. Don't assume everyone with an intact dog wants to breed !!! Some just can't get it done.. I CAN afford $65 - $100 for a spay, but in some area's, spaying cost $300 or more... Some people can't afford that and some people just don't know that having their dog intact puts their dog at a high risk for cancer. We need to EDUCATE AND HELP, not make life harder .

And the License . What is going to stop BYBRs and Millers from getting one ??? Already there are many USDA licensed breeders and many have license by the state. You said it your self, Vick had a license and look what he did ... And just to clairify, good breeders put their money INTO their dogs.. Why do you feel charging a STIFF fee for a license, will help them ??? I'm sorry, but you would only be helping our problem...

Here's agreeing to disagree. This topic is good, but only if you all can read this and think about it. Don't jump on me for my opinion either !!

Last edited by rannalabs : 02-21-2008 at 02:53 PM.

~ Becky n Crew ~
Labrador Retrievers- A Breed Like No Other

rannalabs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 03:24 PM   #25
k9mania
Administrator

 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,939
Yes I did say that Vick had a license and I also pointed out that no one obviously made visits to determine the conditions. And if the legislation states how to determine is someone should be allowed to breed -meaning with an appointed group of the breed registries and ASPCA you could determine some guidelines. It is like the border issue in the states, the laws are there- no enforcement. To bring up limited issues to stop doing anything is not helping. How many cases do you believe there are where a dog cannot be fixed? It is miniscule compared to the amount that can and should be. If a vet stated that such a condition existed then there would be an exception but that person bred that dog (if not qualified according to legislation) the people would be fined enough that they would or could not do that again.

If the legislation is wirtten properly, puppymills and byb would not qualify for a license. As I said before, if we stop doing this because we believe only the reputable breeders will follow the law then we are thinking in a way that would stop us from making laws about drinking age. It is true people drink underage but if we truly enforced the rules (i.e. as at colleges) there would be less underage drinking. Same with all the millions of dogs that are euthanized, abuse, neglected, and dumped, if we made appropriate legislation there would be a lot less dogs available and people would have to pay a bit more but if they did you would know that they really want a dog and understand (hopefully) the costs in time and money involved in ownership/companionship.

As I stated earlier, it may be in stages but you would have to do both spay/neuter and some form of breeding legislation at the same time to start curbing what is going on. About the spay and neutering, I believe the vet of a particular pup would decide on when it would be spayed because you cannot make a blanket statement that all dogs have to be spayed at 4 months, 5 months, etc. But it could be written that all dogs must be spayed or neutered by "x" months unless a written directive from the vet states a month later.


Those heated discussions that happen on the forum and others about mixes vs purebreds stems from the bigger question, "how to we cut back on the dogs being bred that should not be bred?"

Of course education has to go along with all of this. However, that has been going on at many levels and we cannot only treat this problem at that level. It is a mult level problem.

I suggested that we setup a spay/neuter fund out of the fines and breeders fees to help people. But we all have to remember that the costs associated with a dog are far greater than the spay/neuter fee. I assume that a lot of people on the forum have had to spend well over $300 at one time on their dog or dogs. I know as a multi dog companion, I can spend almost that in 3 or 4 months on dog food. And just to get a titer test for my dogs to eliminate unnecessary vaccinations it twice the cost of the vaccination. Can I afford it? Yea, if I sacrifice things for me. It is a choice.

Last edited by k9mania : 02-21-2008 at 03:30 PM. Reason: spelling
k9mania is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 06:43 PM   #26
ann_hawes
Been Around A While
 
ann_hawes's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kokomo, Indiana USA
Posts: 1,949
I haven't had time to check, but I believe there are 30 states that have some sort of spay/neuter law, although it's usually county by county, not state-wide. The one's that I've had time to check and read had exemptions for animals that could be adversely affected by a surgery.
That's the problem with laws. You lose a lot of gray area and need to be specific.
As I said before, public education is imperitive. Low cost spay and neuter cliniics are equally important. We have a Neuter Scooter here in Indiana, but they provide services for cats only. There's a low cost clinic in Bloomington that has several dozen volunteers who actually drive all over the state picking up animals and transporting them to and from the clinic. Those people deserve halos!
ann_hawes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 07:35 PM   #27
Furbilator
Been Around A While
 
Furbilator's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,675
Thank you K9 for pointing out the necessity to have a multi-level approach to legislation or laws. Although some of my 'suggestions' maybe problematic or possibly even improbable to apply, they are just THAT suggestions, a starting point and not 100% the solution. Although I like the discussions, debate, please add your own suggestions to the pot instead of just saying "No this won't work because I know of one instance where it won't apply". Who else is coming up with ideas........ Picking apart an idea is easy, coming up with a possible solution is a little more difficult.

Here is a challenge:
Come up with ten NEW ideas to help curb BYB, Puppymills and unscrupulous breeders.
Furbilator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 09:19 PM   #28
ann_hawes
Been Around A While
 
ann_hawes's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kokomo, Indiana USA
Posts: 1,949
Furbilator said:"Although some of my 'suggestions' maybe problematic or possibly even improbable to apply, they are just THAT suggestions, a starting point and not 100% the solution."

Ditto that. This conversation might just save a few of the millions of dogs that die every year because someone made a few hundred dollars by breeding their parents.
We need ideas and constructive criticism.
ann_hawes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 09:26 PM   #29
k9mania
Administrator

 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,939
I agree with You All (Furbilator and Ann_Hawes). It is not enough to say you don't agree. You need to provide some discussion on how to handle certain situations. It needs to be constructive criticism from the point of what we are trying to accomplish not a disagreement about our point of views. This is not simple and will only be accomplished if people join in and counter with something different or ask how wouod you enforce that? How could reputable breeder be defined in the law etc. It is about solving the problem not perpetuating by taking the exception to the rule and using that to say it should not or cannot be done. In every law, there are some exemptions but they are clearly stated. Keep it going
k9mania is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 09:28 PM   #30
ann_hawes
Been Around A While
 
ann_hawes's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kokomo, Indiana USA
Posts: 1,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by rannalabs View Post
Com-on... We don't need more laws. We need to help people.. Some just don't know. Don't assume everyone with an intact dog wants to breed !!! Some just can't get it done.. I CAN afford $65 - $100 for a spay, but in some area's, spaying cost $300 or more.
Many of the dogs in shelters were deliberately bred, with no health checks done. It's already about money. There have been suggestions of low cost spay/neuter clinics and ideas of how they could be funded.
Although you don't need to know my age, I've been around for quite some time and while public education is needed, it's not going to save the millions of dogs destroyed in shelters every year. More than just education is needed. Many irresponsible breeders are fully aware of the problem they are causing. They simply don't care.
ann_hawes is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

K9Mania.com - Forums By Dog Lovers for Dog Lovers > K9 Mania Dog Park > DRAWING FORUM


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




All times are GMT. The time now is 04:52 AM.